Reply to: Proprietary file formats and the law

[BlasterBates]

This definitely doesn't apply here - there is nothing special about the format that could be patentable, or considered to be DMCA type copy protection which is another potential complication. In fact I'd say that other than being binary, the format is as simple and readable as you could possibly imagine it being for the data that it contains. An average IT bod would have it sussed in an afternoon if they knew roughly what kind of data is was supposed to contain and had a few example files.

I would either accept their conditions or otherwise take some legal advice.

[Lance]

I was going to say, most license agreements assume compliance without you reading them. The great one being that MS used to have on its retail boxes of Windoze "by opening this box you agree to the enclosed license agreement" or words to that effect. Lots of vendors have (had) license agreements that are not visible until you start to use the product.

there was a *ahem* documentary about assumed licensing terms.

HumancentiPad - Wikipedia

[ladymuck]

I was going to say, most license agreements assume compliance without you reading them. The great one being that MS used to have on its retail boxes of Windoze "by opening this box you agree to the enclosed license agreement" or words to that effect. Lots of vendors have (had) license agreements that are not visible until you start to use the product.

[Paralytic]

I've certainly never signed a license agreement, but there is probably one at the back of an unread manual in the box the device comes in - that kind of thing. I doubt very much back in the day whether much (or any) thought was given to protecting the file formats, even if that is possible (I don't think it is under UK law, but whether or not that matters with a bigger company after you..).

When you purchased the hardware (at a great discount) did you sign/agree to any purchase order or anything similar (even digitally or implicitly)? Small print in there could have you also signing up to licence agreements. And did you purchase that hardware personally or via your ltd company, and is your own project IP legally owned by you or your ltd company? This could be important as which legal entity might have signed up to any agreement might dictate judgements if you go to a solicitor.

[mattster]

I've certainly never signed a license agreement, but there is probably one at the back of an unread manual in the box the device comes in - that kind of thing. I doubt very much back in the day whether much (or any) thought was given to protecting the file formats, even if that is possible (I don't think it is under UK law, but whether or not that matters with a bigger company after you..).

[Paralytic]

As far as I am aware, no reference to their file output or file formats at all.

It doesn't have to reference the file format specifically to include it in the agreement - many agreements will be written in general terms. But, without sight of the agreement (which I can understand you can't/don't want to post here) it's impossible to say.

Did you actually sign an agreement? You originally said you had not in your initial post, but then answered yes to point two in the post above: "At any time since then have you owned any of their hardware or signed/read and of their license agreements?"

But you may have just been referring to the hardware part of that question.

[mattster]

OK, so you've bought the hardware and signed the licensing agreement (doesn't matter how much "discount" you got). What does that agreement say?

As far as I am aware, no reference to their file output or file formats at all.

[WTFH]

These are the sorts of questions I need better answers to. I can't imagine any license agreement having anything to say on the first point. Answer to second is yes, including one supplied at hefty discount by the hardware vendors themselves!

OK, so you've bought the hardware and signed the licensing agreement (doesn't matter how much "discount" you got). What does that agreement say?

[Lance]

This definitely doesn't apply here - there is nothing special about the format that could be patentable, or considered to be DMCA type copy protection which is another potential complication. In fact I'd say that other than being binary, the format is as simple and readable as you could possibly imagine it being for the data that it contains. An average IT bod would have it sussed in an afternoon if they knew roughly what kind of data is was supposed to contain and had a few example files.

if it was patented then the format would be public knowledge anyway and therefore no need to reverse engineer it.

But if we want some actual legal stuff about file formats I'm surprised nobody has mention GIFs yet.
GIF patent expires (pinsentmasons.com)
GIF inventor made few rich, but billions happy | Reuters


PNG exists purely because of the licensing implications of GIFs.

[mattster]

Did the legitimate user's agreement say they could share the file with a third party?
At any time since then have you owned any of their hardware or signed/read and of their license agreements?

These are the sorts of questions I need better answers to. I can't imagine any license agreement having anything to say on the first point. Answer to second is yes, including one supplied at hefty discount by the hardware vendors themselves!

[mattster]

This is not straightforward. I think this will mainly depend on whether they have a patent or something similar.

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2149163

This definitely doesn't apply here - there is nothing special about the format that could be patentable, or considered to be DMCA type copy protection which is another potential complication. In fact I'd say that other than being binary, the format is as simple and readable as you could possibly imagine it being for the data that it contains. An average IT bod would have it sussed in an afternoon if they knew roughly what kind of data is was supposed to contain and had a few example files.

[WTFH]

In my case this was just a copy of a file given to me by a legitimate user. I didn't even own the hardware in question at the time and had therefore not agreed to any license agreements..

Did the legitimate user's agreement say they could share the file with a third party?
At any time since then have you owned any of their hardware or signed/read and of their license agreements?

[cojak]

This is not straightforward. I think this will mainly depend on whether they have a patent or something similar.

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2149163

In any case, a small amount of money from Bigco to make it go away seems the best idea all around.

[BlasterBates]

This is not straightforward. I think this will mainly depend on whether they have a patent or something similar.

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2149163

Proprietary formats are typically controlled by a private person or organization for the benefit of its applications, protected with patents or as trade secrets, and intended to give the license holder exclusive control of the technology to the (current or future) exclusion of others.^[1]Typically such restrictions attempt to prevent reverse engineering, though reverse engineering of file formats for the purposes of interoperability is generally believed to be legal by those who practice it. Legal positions differ according to each country's laws related to, among other things, software patents.

[mattster]

Point 3 seems quite interesting - could the other company claim you did not have lawful access to the file format?

In my case this was just a copy of a file given to me by a legitimate user. I didn't even own the hardware in question at the time and had therefore not agreed to any license agreements..