Reply to: QDOS or IPSE

[Lance]

it's not really a very good comparison.

One is an insurance company.
The other is a body for professionals working as freelancers.

There is some product crossover with regards to tax investigation assistance. But it's only a thin crossover.

FWIW - I have QDOS PI, PL and EL. And I use Federation of Small Business (FSB), rather than IPSE, if I were to need tax investigation assistance.

[PerfectStorm]

QDOS is popular among the type of contractors I work with who don't get into contract reviews and so on. The vast majority in fact have no insurances at all - no one I know has heard of IPSE - but a few have QDOS TLC35 as insurance for their "sign whatever the agency gives you" contracts.

We really are the outliers on here.

I get the vouchers from IPSE which reduces the cost down to not very much, it's not huge as it is, and once a year or so I'll have a legal query that they've helped with too. They've also represented me in investigations via their Tax legals.

[courtg9000]

Buying IPSE is not that easy. After all, it's not a company limited by shares and the AoA are deliberately vague about what happens if it's wound up. It won't be a fire sale, that's for certain, and the membership would have to be recompensed first. You can't easily compare that situation to that of any standard commercial comapny.

If those sort of people want a deal done, they get a deal done. They won't really care either way as long as their numbers stack up. If those types are circling any business you have an involvement with its time to get very worried indeed. It doesn't matter what sort of company it is or who is involved.

[jamesbrown]

I've never liked the T&C's for QDOS' insurance. I am still a member of IPSE as the overall package is still reasonable value for money. If you're only interested in one thing and don't care about the extras then it may not add up financially.

Indeed. There's an extremely straightforward get-out based on their interpretation of the prospects of success. How they would balance that against the potentially good publicity from losing a case and paying out is anyone's guess, but the T&Cs are written that way for a reason.

[ladymuck]

I've never liked the T&C's for QDOS' insurance. I am still a member of IPSE as the overall package is still reasonable value for money. If you're only interested in one thing and don't care about the extras then it may not add up financially.

[malvolio]

Quite possibly. To paraphrase my contact (who is effectively a corporate vulture - he buys outright or buys into businesses embarrassingly cheaply and also has a record for getting people to pay him handsomely to take them off their hands! ), not enough dosh stashed under the mattress for a rainy day.

Buying IPSE is not that easy. After all, it's not a company limited by shares and the AoA are deliberately vague about what happens if it's wound up. It won't be a fire sale, that's for certain, and the membership would have to be recompensed first. You can't easily compare that situation to that of any standard commercial comapny.

[jamesbrown]

Still, it doesn't change the fact that TLC35 is a complete waste of money.

[jamesbrown]

They've been on a downward trend since 2018:

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/0...TED/financials

So, yeah, they will need to reshape - moving office will've saved them a lot, but it's still anyone's guess as to whether they'll be around in, say, 5 years.

[courtg9000]

Oh it may mean they will disappear simply because the remaining membership may not be eb]nough to cover the running costs.

not that I’ve looked at recent accounts but from me port their were dire last time I looked and if anything the market has changed for the worse since then.

Quite possibly. To paraphrase my contact (who is effectively a corporate vulture - he buys outright or buys into businesses embarrassingly cheaply and also has a record for getting people to pay him handsomely to take them off their hands! ), not enough dosh stashed under the mattress for a rainy day.

[eek]

They're in a reducing market thanks to Chapter 9 and 10's depredations with a reducing income, meaning lots of necessary cost saving. That doesn't mean they are about to disappear or leave their members without cover.

The internal politics are important; they can no longer justifiably claim to be member led. However the members still own the organisation.

There's always lots of scaremongering and criticism (not least from me!) around IPSE over the last ten years or so. They're still here. Compare that risk to that of a commercial organisation who could quite easily turn off a market that doesn't pay its way.

Oh it may mean they will disappear simply because the remaining membership may not be enough to cover the running costs and the rapidly dwindling reserves will only last so long.

not that I’ve looked at recent accounts but from my memory they were dire the last time I looked and if anything the market has changed for the worse since then.

[malvolio]

I heard a lot more serious than internal politics and economics.

They're in a reducing market thanks to Chapter 9 and 10's depredations with a reducing income, meaning lots of necessary cost saving. That doesn't mean they are about to disappear or leave their members without cover.

The internal politics are important; they can no longer justifiably claim to be member led. However the members still own the organisation.

There's always lots of scaremongering and criticism (not least from me!) around IPSE over the last ten years or so. They're still here. Compare that risk to that of a commercial organisation who could quite easily turn off a market that doesn't pay its way.

[courtg9000]

Rumours about internal politics and economics from what I heard, not member representation. AFAIK the support element is still fully in place.

The other option is to talk to Markel Tax directly. May cost a little more but without all the baggage of the other two...

I heard a lot more serious than internal politics and economics.

[malvolio]

QDos all the way if you are depending on the product.
I was having a chat with a contact of mine just before crimbo and IPSE came up in the conversation. Some rumours were doing the rounds apparently.

Rumours about internal politics and economics from what I heard, not member representation. AFAIK the support element is still fully in place.

The other option is to talk to Markel Tax directly. May cost a little more but without all the baggage of the other two...

[courtg9000]

QDos all the way if you are depending on the product.
I was having a chat with a contact of mine just before crimbo and IPSE came up in the conversation. Some rumours were doing the rounds apparently.

[jamesbrown]

In general, IR35 (tax loss) insurance is worthless.

There needs to be a reasonable prospect of success for a case to be pursued. If there's a reasonable prospect of success, you're almost certainly outside. If there isn't, you aren't covered. There's an argument that a company like QDOS would actually want to see a claim made for marketing purposes, but there's such a narrow window in which a claim could be made that it's a complete waste of money IMHO.

IPSE is a bit crap too, but I say that as a member and, overall, it's probably still value for money (just about), so better than QDOS or similar. With IPSE+, you get quite a bit more than legal expenses cover, but you don't get tax loss insurance for the fairly straightforward reason that it's worthless.