Reply to: Similar role offered as Outside IR35

[simes]

NI is paid for the period in which it is due (i.e. that week, that fortnight, that month).

I can't see any easy way of claiming it back and there aren't many very difficult ways...

Quite!

Cheers.

[simes]

I can't see how you can do that. I believe you need to take it to the client if you have an issue but I think it's universally agreed this is not going to work. I can't see why HMRC would be remotely interested if the client has done an SDS and it's shown inside. It's up to the client and even if the factors point to outside the client can still dictate inside and there is nothing I can see that you can do about it. The client can just turn around and say no substitutes and you are done at the point anyway so also finding it difficult to find a situation where the client says inside but it's truly outside.

You'd have to pick some very real and detailed situations to investigate that because as a single line question it's a none starter.

Yup, as I feared.

As to the bit in bold, the HMRC were interested in, and capable of, reversing an Outside decision when made by the contractor in times past. This is not meant to sound whiney but, I would have thought in the new world a bit of, Fair's Fair could be permitted here to allow for both the contract and the reality to be reviewed later in the day once the estate is better understood and not just guessed at - just as the HMRC were permitted to do.

Oh well. For my part, am sticking it out to get Outside gigs only.

Cheerio.

[northernladuk]

Ive been on inside IR35 contracts. Ive been on outside IR35 contracts. What correlation or causation are you saying that I should be seeing and/or would be pending?

Which is totally different to what your original post said bearing in mind the context. We are talking about the risks of being on a contract that is inside and then the IR35 status just changes on the same contract. That is going from inside to outside that we are talking about.
Going from one gig that is inside to a completely different gig that is outside is not what we are talking about. That's not really going from inside to outside for all intents and purposes. It's getting a new gig with a different status which is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

[dranzer01]

People steal cars and they've not seen an issues or noticed... Until....

Ive been on inside IR35 contracts. Ive been on outside IR35 contracts. What correlation or causation are you saying that I should be seeing and/or would be pending?

[northernladuk]

Apologies up front if this is better understood and/or explained elsewhere but, I am guessing there is still no way for a contractor to open up a case post commencing the contract to prove that, contrary to the Inside decision, the contract should in fact be Outside?

This contrary to the HMRC's ability to do the same in previous times.

Thank you.

I can't see how you can do that. I believe you need to take it to the client if you have an issue but I think it's universally agreed this is not going to work. I can't see why HMRC would be remotely interested if the client has done an SDS and it's shown inside. It's up to the client and even if the factors point to outside the client can still dictate inside and there is nothing I can see that you can do about it. The client can just turn around and say no substitutes and you are done at the point anyway so also finding it difficult to find a situation where the client says inside but it's truly outside.

You'd have to pick some very real and detailed situations to investigate that because as a single line question it's a none starter.

[eek]

Apologies up front if this is better understood and/or explained elsewhere but, I am guessing there is still no way for a contractor to open up a case post commencing the contract to prove that, contrary to the Inside decision, the contract should in fact be Outside?

This contrary to the HMRC's ability to do the same in previous times.

Thank you.

NI is paid for the period in which it is due (i.e. that week, that fortnight, that month).

I can't see any easy way of claiming it back and there aren't many very difficult ways...

[simes]

Apologies up front if this is better understood and/or explained elsewhere but, I am guessing there is still no way for a contractor to open up a case post commencing the contract to prove that, contrary to the Inside decision, the contract should in fact be Outside?

This contrary to the HMRC's ability to do the same in previous times.

Thank you.

[northernladuk]

Ive gone from inside to outside plenty of times. No issues my end that ive received or noticed. But of course, I prefer outside as I get paid more money.

People steal cars and they've not seen an issues or noticed... Until....

[dranzer01]

Ive gone from inside to outside plenty of times. No issues my end that ive received or noticed. But of course, I prefer outside as I get paid more money.

[cojak]

Thanks all.

I never received an SDS. Only verbal communication as far as i can remember. The ones joined recently confirmed their contract is Outside IR35. Not sure if they got an SDS. I know their work is exactly same as mine but with some supervision as they joined mid project.

I think I'll just bring it up during the extension, if there is one, and see if and why my role needs to continue inside.

Just don’t tell your contractor colleagues that you’ve done this or they’ll blame you if the end client suddenly puts them inside as well a week after your discussion.

[bbp]

Thanks all.

I never received an SDS. Only verbal communication as far as i can remember. The ones joined recently confirmed their contract is Outside IR35. Not sure if they got an SDS. I know their work is exactly same as mine but with some supervision as they joined mid project.

I think I'll just bring it up during the extension, if there is one, and see if and why my role needs to continue inside.

[Lance]

have the ones who joined recently received an SDS with an outside determination? Or are they possibly in for a nasty shock at the 90 day threshold?

[dsc]

Thoughts please.

Been on an Inside role for almost an year now - with multiple extensions. I'm content with the project & client - until today. I came to know that other contractors who joined recently to perform the same work were given an Outside IR35 decision.

I was the first contractor in the team and did not have any justification to challenge the Inside decision when I took the role. After the work started, I realised this should have been an Outside role. I'm working without any control or supervision. Anyway, had signed the contract already. So ignored it. Now, I'm surprised these other roles were offered as Outside. Its same work as mine and in fact has some degree of supervision because of the contractors' lack of experience in the project.

I have 5 months to go before the end/extension. Is it a good idea to bring this up with the client at all (New role was apparently publicly advertised as Outside)? or should I just suck it up until the contract ends.

Are you sure it's a permanent outside rather the the often tried "offer it as outside to lure people in and then tell them half way through it's actually inside"? even if that's not the case, are they genuinely outside or again been told it's outside to get some bums on seats when the roles are actually more inside than not (and the company is taking the risk)?

It's possible that in your case they've been overly cautious whereas now they need people desperately and are willing to risk it saying these roles are outside.

[cojak]

I'm surprised about that - I know that going from outside to inside is a big red flag, but if this contract "should have" been outside all along then surely the OP won't owe HMRC any money?

Looking at this another way, I assume that the OP is currently working through an umbrella company. I don't think it's a problem to then switch over to a limited company on the same contract.

OP, have you received an SDS from the client?

Having said all that, I agree that extension/renewal is the best time to negotiate something like this. If you've agreed to do another 5 months on an inside basis, I think you should honour that, but on the plus side it gives you plenty of time to broach the topic.

I think that the true status of this contract is now irrelevant. HMRC have had their money and I very much doubt that they’ll let the rest of it go without a fight.

[northernladuk]

It's quite possible his engagement is outside as they won't have them under D&C, they will allow a substitute and his working practices reflect an outside gig. His delivery is different to yours. That's the way it is. It's entirely possible they want to treat you differently to him so the contracts are different. That's the way it is I am afraid. Just because one supplier is outside it doesn't mean they all are.

It could be historic and they've changed their engagement but even if that is the case, as everyone has said, it's going to be very risky to swap from one to the other. You are going to have to be prepared to convince HMRC in an investigation and bearing in mind it's the client that is on the hook it's unlikely they are going to want to expose themselves just for your sake. Odd situation to be sure but not unthinkable.