Reply to: Temporary working from EU for a UK based client through umbrella company

[rocktronAMP]

From a legal perspective there is no exemption that allows you to go into any country and simply work without registering a business and paying tax and social insurance on that business from day one. Obviously no-one is going to chase you for 15 days remote work in a hotel, but it is still illegal, if you don't register a business or as self-employed in that country and you work there.

I don't know though.

What are the rules for a Security White Hacker or Performance Tuning Specialist?
If they turn up in a country, where a client is and then run penetration testing from a nearby hotel under authorisation?
I guess they would charge a load of money to a UK business and therefore markup any forex and service expenses to an invoice that they present the client.

So you might be working in Brussel, Belgium for a Belgian company for a just week, but then the client invoice is paid to your UK LTD through a forex PO vehicle or something like that.

It might be different practice for a contractor in a PSC, because these are very short engagements and consultancy 7 to 15 days a piece. Where as an Agile PM working for 6 months contract then thinking of extending is going to caught as you say above through the 180 day rules.

The other businesses that I can see that works like this: website design, UX/UI design testing and media content strategy writing.

[BlasterBates]

Thanks and totally agree about client having their working model preferences. All I am trying to understand is law / impacts.

From a legal perspective there is no exemption that allows you to go into any country and simply work without registering a business and paying tax and social insurance on that business from day one. Obviously no-one is going to chase you for 15 days remote work in a hotel, but it is still illegal, if you don't register a business or as self-employed in that country and you work there.

[philgo]

But it's not your call to make.



As I say, doesn't matter what the law is. Will the client allow it? No? Reasons? Doesn't matter it's a no. Even more so now it's legal that's said no and not HR. They won't be paying lawyers £400 a time to re-check their situation so you can go.

If you would like to have a chat about the impact of working overseas on tax and social security matters I would be happy to help. Feel free to drop me a PM. I wont comment on what the client/agent/umbrella have said, because they are perfectly within their rights to reject any model of working that they don't like/understand.

Thanks and totally agree about client having their working model preferences. All I am trying to understand is law / impacts.

[PCTNN]

Get a room

[Sue B]

Sue B Eehh oop lass. You doing ok?

eehh oop duck

Yeah, doing good thanks how about you?

[northernladuk]

If you would like to have a chat about the impact of working overseas on tax and social security matters I would be happy to help. Feel free to drop me a PM. I wont comment on what the client/agent/umbrella have said, because they are perfectly within their rights to reject any model of working that they don't like/understand.

Sue B Eehh oop lass. You doing ok?

[Sue B]

It might be useful/ not useful for the current contract but extremely useful when searching for new contracts. It will be actually now a new question I will ask during future interviews.

If you would like to have a chat about the impact of working overseas on tax and social security matters I would be happy to help. Feel free to drop me a PM. I wont comment on what the client/agent/umbrella have said, because they are perfectly within their rights to reject any model of working that they don't like/understand.

[philgo]

But it's not your call to make.



As I say, doesn't matter what the law is. Will the client allow it? No? Reasons? Doesn't matter it's a no. Even more so now it's legal that's said no and not HR. They won't be paying lawyers £400 a time to re-check their situation so you can go.

Legally you can't just turn up in a different country and simply work remotely on a tourist visa. There is usually no grace period. However it looks like you can apply for a visa.

https://citizenremote.com/visas/france/

Some smaller companies might simply turn a blind eye because they don't know any better.

of course........I have French citizenship in this case so no VISA question related. The question is purely around taxes in this case. Obviously since Brexit work agreement between UK and EU have changed.

[philgo]

But it's not your call to make.



As I say, doesn't matter what the law is. Will the client allow it? No? Reasons? Doesn't matter it's a no. Even more so now it's legal that's said no and not HR. They won't be paying lawyers £400 a time to re-check their situation so you can go.

Why not take 15 days off and enjoy your time in France?

Of course, I will end up doing something like that. I just like to understand things, that's all. But defo a question I will ask for future contracts i.e what's your policy for remote working from abroad.

[BlasterBates]

Legally you can't just turn up in a different country and simply work remotely on a tourist visa. There is usually no grace period. However it looks like you can apply for a visa.

https://citizenremote.com/visas/france/

Some smaller companies might simply turn a blind eye because they don't know any better.

[WTFH]

Why not take 15 days off and enjoy your time in France?

Best idea

(note to all, I've done some pruning to this thread due to the trolling by a user who has now been given a time out)

[TheDude]

Why not take 15 days off and enjoy your time in France?

[philgo]

But it's not your call to make.



As I say, doesn't matter what the law is. Will the client allow it? No? Reasons? Doesn't matter it's a no. Even more so now it's legal that's said no and not HR. They won't be paying lawyers £400 a time to re-check their situation so you can go.

"Any EU employee who plans to work in an EU member state other than their country of residence needs to complete an A1 certificate application."

Not sure how this changed post Brexit. Looks like you need to prove you pay NI in the UK so you're not liable in your host country (of 15 days).

It's likely a big grey area and nobody can be arsed to work this out for one contractor. Over time, companies will get a grip with these issues, just not yet.

Yes I am aware of this A1 certificate and they referred to it in their answer. However they said they could not use A1 in this case as I am the one requesting instead of client sending me over there (even if my boss is okay with it) :-)
But then again I don't see why this issue is at Client Agency level instead of Umbrella level.
Sure this will be clarified in the future. However that's a huge company and I'm sure they have been looking at the question properly. My feeling is more than they don't want abuse from people travelling everywhere all the time so they apply a blanket (which I could understand). But I might be wrong as well.

[ConsultingTechArchitect]

"Any EU employee who plans to work in an EU member state other than their country of residence needs to complete an A1 certificate application."

Not sure how this changed post Brexit. Looks like you need to prove you pay NI in the UK so you're not liable in your host country (of 15 days).

It's likely a big grey area and nobody can be arsed to work this out for one contractor. Over time, companies will get a grip with these issues, just not yet.

[philgo]

But it's not your call to make.



As I say, doesn't matter what the law is. Will the client allow it? No? Reasons? Doesn't matter it's a no. Even more so now it's legal that's said no and not HR. They won't be paying lawyers £400 a time to re-check their situation so you can go.

HR's answer is perfectly valid and accurate were the OP not using an umbrella (and it's very likely that HR didn't know that bit). But you would need to understand some rather niche tax things to understand why the answer was what it was

So can you explain me why they mention NI/Security social double paiement issue when this is paid by the umbrella employing me?