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Previously on "Ad-hoc consultancy work"

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  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Originally posted by d000hg View Post
    Sounds like the worst of all worlds for you really, when it should be the opposite - for ad-hoc work you would expect a high rate and possibly a retainer. It's something of the dream for many!

    You seem to basically have a zero-hours contract offered... you can't take on other work in case they tell you they need you, and you don't get paid when they don't want you. That they also tell you it's inside IR35 is ridiculous, frankly.

    Doesn't sound like there's too much to like about it to me?
    Yes, I know what you mean re: ZHC, but they have said if I'm not available owing to other work, they'd accept that.
    Re; the rate, yes it is 'inside' but I'll be ending up with £9k+/month being paid to me after all necessary stoppages, so I would class that as a reasonably high rate, & equivalent to c.£450/day & no ltd co. accountancy fuss. Initially work is 60 days (3 months), as mentioned so that gives me a reasonable income over a relatively short period of time. It'll be start/stop/start/stop but I'm kinda ok with that tbh.

    Leave a comment:


  • d000hg
    replied
    Sounds like the worst of all worlds for you really, when it should be the opposite - for ad-hoc work you would expect a high rate and possibly a retainer. It's something of the dream for many!

    You seem to basically have a zero-hours contract offered... you can't take on other work in case they tell you they need you, and you don't get paid when they don't want you. That they also tell you it's inside IR35 is ridiculous, frankly.

    Doesn't sound like there's too much to like about it to me?

    Leave a comment:


  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post

    I've seen some suggest nearer 35% but I think at the end of the day, it's up to you and what you think is fare remuneration for the work. Not a helpful answer but only you know what an acceptable fee is.
    Managed to get just short of the 35% uplift (33.333%), so reasonably happy with that.
    Last edited by SteelyDan; 25 November 2021, 16:03.

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  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post
    If you are doing other work - your best plan for an inside contract is to put everything beyond the minimum wage (that needs to be paid) goes into your pension fund - and for that you need an umbrella.

    I really don't get how people don't grasp this very simple fact.

    The last thing I would be doing in your case is agency / end client payroll.
    Thanks for the input, appreciated, but no, I'm not doing any other work currently. And, I do 'get' the tax efficient dumping into a pension btw, & if this was going to be a longer term work period, then I may have considered this (& discussed it with the consultancy)...but it isn't, it's initially 60 days. There is no agency involved anywhere in this, & the end client is a gov dept. The payroll arrangements are being provided by the consultancy, who approached me directly. I don't see an issue really, apart from the large amount of tax, but there's no escaping that one, unfortunately.

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  • eek
    replied
    If you are doing other work - your best plan for an inside contract is to put everything beyond the minimum wage (that needs to be paid) goes into your pension fund - and for that you need an umbrella.

    I really don't get how people don't grasp this very simple fact.

    The last thing I would be doing in your case is agency / end client payroll.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by SteelyDan View Post

    OK had a chat last week, they want me initially for c.60 days on a T&M basis. They're happy for me to operate 100% remotely, which is great, and also, if they require me further down the line but I'm engaged elsewhere, they're accepting of that possibility. Gives me scope to explore other stuff elsewhere without feeling obligated or tied to these people. They're also doing this through their own payroll system (they have other contractors operating like this, for this particular client of theirs, & inside IR35) so there's no requirement for umbrella org involvement. Just need to agree finances & I think we're sorted. Also need to find a decent calculator to convert outside to inside to gauge the required uplift. Would this need to be c.20%?
    I've seen some suggest nearer 35% but I think at the end of the day, it's up to you and what you think is fare remuneration for the work. Not a helpful answer but only you know what an acceptable fee is.

    Leave a comment:


  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post

    This should be a Master Services Contract and individual SoWs (for each project) - as said above, this should be a B2B engagement, and trying to shoe-horn it into an IR35 gig is causing issues.

    If it can't be made B2B, i'd just be asking them to come back to you for each project and seeing if you're available - that lets you get on with other clients, and if you're not available, then tough on them.

    If they want you on available at a shorter notice, come up with a structure where you're on a annually renewing contract where, eg, half, your normal day rate is paid whether you complete timesheets or not (ie. a retainer), and you bill the rest of the day rate (or more) for the periods of time when you are doing productive work for them.

    That gives you the time when you're not working for this client to work on other gigs - though that will be difficult to manage if these other clients also just see you as a disguised employee (as this one has accepted is the case).
    OK had a chat last week, they want me initially for c.60 days on a T&M basis. They're happy for me to operate 100% remotely, which is great, and also, if they require me further down the line but I'm engaged elsewhere, they're accepting of that possibility. Gives me scope to explore other stuff elsewhere without feeling obligated or tied to these people. They're also doing this through their own payroll system (they have other contractors operating like this, for this particular client of theirs, & inside IR35) so there's no requirement for umbrella org involvement. Just need to agree finances & I think we're sorted. Also need to find a decent calculator to convert outside to inside to gauge the required uplift. Would this need to be c.20%?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotAllThere
    replied
    Originally posted by SteelyDan View Post
    ...which seems to be the gist of what you had there?
    Yes. One contract.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by SteelyDan View Post
    Re; "ad-hoc", it definitely won't be a day here, a day there, that would not be possible with the work I do (I'm not a tech, I'm more on the business improvement side).

    Having worked for them before, I feel sure it'll be more structured than that (with a contract containing deliverables), all above board, & I suspect (as mentioned) it will be more like a few months on, couple off, followed by a few on, provided the end client continues to support & finance the project.
    This should be a Master Services Contract and individual SoWs (for each project) - as said above, this should be a B2B engagement, and trying to shoe-horn it into an IR35 gig is causing issues.

    If it can't be made B2B, i'd just be asking them to come back to you for each project and seeing if you're available - that lets you get on with other clients, and if you're not available, then tough on them.

    If they want you on available at a shorter notice, come up with a structure where you're on a annually renewing contract where, eg, half, your normal day rate is paid whether you complete timesheets or not (ie. a retainer), and you bill the rest of the day rate (or more) for the periods of time when you are doing productive work for them.

    That gives you the time when you're not working for this client to work on other gigs - though that will be difficult to manage if these other clients also just see you as a disguised employee (as this one has accepted is the case).
    Last edited by Paralytic; 2 November 2021, 16:31.

    Leave a comment:


  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Originally posted by NotAllThere View Post
    I did this once, but it was adhoc half days, rather than months. We agreed 6 days billing a month regardless, but for the duration of the contract (1 year), no more than 72 days. And with the exception of an international workshop (flights paid by them) for a week, it was all remote.
    Interesting, thanks NAT. I was thinking along similar lines earlier as to how any offering might develop, & thought that it might well be (for want of a better phrase) a sort of open-term contract, which would still allow for the ad-hoc nature of the work, but avoid the 'nause' of creating several short term contracts and all the associated palaver...which seems to be the gist of what you had there?

    Leave a comment:


  • NotAllThere
    replied
    I did this once, but it was adhoc half days, rather than months. We agreed 6 days billing a month regardless, but for the duration of the contract (1 year), no more than 72 days. And with the exception of an international workshop (flights paid by them) for a week, it was all remote.

    Leave a comment:


  • SteelyDan
    replied
    Thanks all for these points/thoughts; really helpful, & exactly the reason I posted on here.

    Re; "ad-hoc", it definitely won't be a day here, a day there, that would not be possible with the work I do (I'm not a tech, I'm more on the business improvement side).

    Having worked for them before, I feel sure it'll be more structured than that (with a contract containing deliverables), all above board, & I suspect (as mentioned) it will be more like a few months on, couple off, followed by a few on, provided the end client continues to support & finance the project.

    I have a good relationship with (& trust) them, & they approached me asking about my availability, so it's not that this is a new client approaching me out of the blue. I'll be working (in the main) with their end client - the pub sec org.

    I think the point from LM is pertinent, insofar as ensuring I receive sufficient advance notification of any requirements.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Pre-Covid, I was in talks for something similar. The proposed arrangement was for ad hoc days, maybe up to a week at a time, either remote, UK or overseas.

    It never came off, due to Covid and it being in the aviation sector, but we did broadly agree things like the amount of notice required based on the type of activity and its location. The company knew I would be taking time away from other contract work so they were willing to ensure that where the project needed my services, I would be informed as far in advance as possible and be able to say no if the dates didn't work.

    I'd have loved to do it as it was a great opportunity.

    I think it's important to understand their requirements and expectations and then offer a solution that works for both of you. It should be achievable with a bit of effort. Get everything documented.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post

    Run away. "Ad-hoc" and "inside IR35" screams a difference in expectations just waiting to happen. They'll want to treat you as an on-call permie, most likely, nothing like ad-hoc work ordinarily, which involves near zero client interaction and something you do whenever you want (subject to meeting deliverable deadlines).



    Again, not worth the headache.

    If you want to do ad-hoc work on the side, make sure it's proper B2B work (e.g., via a purchase order and simple T&Cs) with clear deliverables and then fit it around your bigger clients. The last thing you want is a client that sees you as an on-call, drop-everything-and-do-this-now pseudo-permie. In that situation, the cost to your other business will be way too high.
    What JamesBrown says

    It ain't worth the hassle and given that it's inside you are going to find it hard to find an umbrella that deals with ad-hoc work unless its guaranteed to be at least 1 day a week - it's not worth the hassle for the umbrella.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamesbrown
    replied
    Originally posted by SteelyDan View Post
    who have deemed all contractors are ‘inside’ for tax purposes, & is non-negotiable
    Run away. "Ad-hoc" and "inside IR35" screams a difference in expectations just waiting to happen. They'll want to treat you as an on-call permie, most likely, nothing like ad-hoc work ordinarily, which involves near zero client interaction and something you do whenever you want (subject to meeting deliverable deadlines).

    Originally posted by SteelyDan View Post
    beck & call
    Again, not worth the headache.

    If you want to do ad-hoc work on the side, make sure it's proper B2B work (e.g., via a purchase order and simple T&Cs) with clear deliverables and then fit it around your bigger clients. The last thing you want is a client that sees you as an on-call, drop-everything-and-do-this-now pseudo-permie. In that situation, the cost to your other business will be way too high.

    Leave a comment:

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