Reply to: choosing inside and outside IR35

[northernladuk]

*cough*

She was doing in reverse order and leaving the best to last with a cliff hanger wait and you spoilt it....

Or maybe not

[northernladuk]

I've a feeling even though four people have now highlighted the difference to the OP he's still going to struggle with it.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

*cough*

Lance my apologies for missing you off the list

[Lance]

I think both you eek and northernladuk have a point. If the end client applies a blanket ban on the use of PSC's then this places the contracts outside of the remit for IR35, ie the legislation doesn't need to be taken into consideration. Whereas IF the roles are all blanket inside IR35, it is a different kettle of fish... if they do this the IR35 legislation still applies and at this point if they insist on an umbrella for the assignment then the employment costs (Ers NI, Levy and the umbrella margin) cannot be passed onto the contractor and as such an uplift must be applied to the rate

*cough*

NOTE. Blanket bans on PSCs is not the same as inside IR35. Or do you mean blanket determinations? (which are unlawful and uncommon as far as I'm aware).

[lucyclarityumbrella]

Blanket determination isn’t anything like a blanket ban on the use of PSCs

I think both you eek and northernladuk have a point. If the end client applies a blanket ban on the use of PSC's then this places the contracts outside of the remit for IR35, ie the legislation doesn't need to be taken into consideration. Whereas IF the roles are all blanket inside IR35, it is a different kettle of fish... if they do this the IR35 legislation still applies and at this point if they insist on an umbrella for the assignment then the employment costs (Ers NI, Levy and the umbrella margin) cannot be passed onto the contractor and as such an uplift must be applied to the rate

[Lance]

My business is fine and not impacted by ir35 (because I wasn’t servicing finance ). If anything I’m happy with it so far , lots of permie contractors gone, opens business development doors...

indeed it does

[GitMaster69]

Strong position. I applaud your stand.


Uhoh... Your slipping.. Less than 24 hours.

It took the banks many months to choose their path. And it's not all PSCs banned. Just the ones you know about. There are plenty of proper outside contractors left. Just not bum on the seat developers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the banks knew all along you, and many others, were inside all along but they were happy as it wasn't their problem.

You're going to have to deal with reality and/or find different work.

For what it's worth there's plenty of outside gigs for genuine freelancers. I have 5 right now.

My business is fine and not impacted by ir35 (because I wasn’t servicing finance ). If anything I’m happy with it so far , lots of permie contractors gone, opens business development doors...

[Lance]

Never inside. Inside roles need to die just like FTC

Strong position. I applaud your stand.

. If there were half of the contracts proper outside 1 man needed, half inside, I’d be fine with that.

Uhoh... Your slipping.. Less than 24 hours.

It took the banks many months to choose their path. And it's not all PSCs banned. Just the ones you know about. There are plenty of proper outside contractors left. Just not bum on the seat developers.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the banks knew all along you, and many others, were inside all along but they were happy as it wasn't their problem.

You're going to have to deal with reality and/or find different work.

For what it's worth there's plenty of outside gigs for genuine freelancers. I have 5 right now.

[GitMaster69]

but you're missing the point. They won't engage with your LTD. That makes IR35 totally out of scope. You will be an employee of them, their agency, or an umbrella.
They're not asking you to abandon your company.
They want a member of staff. If that's not for you then fine. But there's bugger all you can do about it. They've made their choice.

Details are important if you ever want to be engaged an outside IR35 contractor ever again so pay attention to them.

Yes it’s their choice to force it on us . If there were half of the contracts proper outside 1 man needed, half inside, I’d be fine with that. But that’s not what happened and my business is locked out of lucrative industry!

[Lance]

sorry I miss the difference. Me as an "outside" contractor , having a business. Can I have financial client?

....

NO

call it as you want blanket ban blanket or determination. The result is I can't work there as I will not abandon my business because they wish so

but you're missing the point. They won't engage with your LTD. That makes IR35 totally out of scope. You will be an employee of them, their agency, or an umbrella.
They're not asking you to abandon your company.
They want a member of staff. If that's not for you then fine. But there's bugger all you can do about it. They've made their choice.

Details are important if you ever want to be engaged an outside IR35 contractor ever again so pay attention to them.

[GitMaster69]

sigh....

No. They have blanket banned PSCs...... They are not stupid enough to to blanket assessments as that's NOT LAWFUL.

sorry I miss the difference. Me as an "outside" contractor , having a business. Can I have financial client?

....

NO

call it as you want blanket ban blanket or determination. The result is I can't work there as I will not abandon my business because they wish so

[Lance]

blanket determinations uncommon? Have you been living under a rock? The entire financial industry did nothing but that.

sigh....

No. They have blanket banned PSCs...... They are not stupid enough to to blanket assessments as that's NOT LAWFUL.

[GitMaster69]

Realistically all that's happening now is client's are exerting the control they mostly always had, and definitely always wanted.
For years they've had to pay top dollar for prima-donna contractors, of whom only a few acted correctly. Now they aren't competing for outside contractors (that mostly never existed really) then can exert the control they always wanted.

Shut up and code. B*tch...!

NOTE. Blanket bans on PSCs is not the same as inside IR35. Or do you mean blanket determinations? (which are unlawful and uncommon as far as I'm aware).

blanket determinations uncommon? Have you been living under a rock? The entire financial industry did nothing but that.

[northernladuk]

Blanket determination isn’t anything like a blanket ban on the use of PSCs

and role based determinations are perfectly legal - it’s just global determinations that everyone is inside that aren’t.

and then you have agents who don’t 100% know what’s going on and say the wrong thing

either way there are a lot of things that may result in a contract being “inside” IR35 most of which will be because the contract is simply just additional staff (by another means) or because HMRC has scared the Finance / HR Director

I know this. That's what I said? Just makes it very complex to discuss when people use completely the wrong phrase. Simes did it the other day and totally ruined whatever half decent argument he might have had.

[eek]

I wish people would get this bit right. Blanket ban is not inside IR35. Blanket ban on PSCs or blanket determination. It's pretty key.

Blanket determination isn’t anything like a blanket ban on the use of PSCs

and role based determinations are perfectly legal - it’s just global determinations that everyone is inside that aren’t.

and then you have agents who don’t 100% know what’s going on and say the wrong thing

either way there are a lot of things that may result in a contract being “inside” IR35 most of which will be because the contract is simply just additional staff (by another means) or because HMRC has scared the Finance / HR Director