Reply to: Permanent PLUS Just Got Umbrella

[northernladuk]

I know people doing this and are able to meet targets just fine. Many permanent jobs pay less because the work is easier, particularly in companies who are yet to discover automation. Just automate your own services and the job is easily 10% of the difficulty it would be when done manually. Perhaps people have been contracting so long they have forgotten that many permanent jobs are very easy but also pay proportionately less to account for this easiness and perceived job security.

But as an employee it is your job to automate it and then get on with a new piece of work with the time you saved. If you were being paid to carry out a task then fair enough but not when you are employed. Increasing efficiency so you can save time to do something else is your job. Just because you can do a job faster doesn't mean you can then sit in their office and do other work. I think you've forgotten how to be a permie.

As to your concern regarding the permanent job Human Resources, I don't see why you are worrying. For all they know you have other income streams. You could be paying yourself using a Limited Company or have a range of personal rental income. You are worrying without good reason. The other responses in this thread are reminiscent of people unable to multi-task well or who instead waste a lot of their day on this forum when they could be billing a second contract or part time work. I've done multiple contracts before and it's relatively easy if you are an organised person.

You are wrong. He could have other income streams and as long as they are done outside the 9-5 they probably won't care. That said if it's using their IP, customers or anything linked to them they will care a lot. It's about trying to balance out what they might be intereted in and telling them and what they aren't. Potentionally using their time to do other work will interest them. Income doesn't really matter, his time during the day does. Again, multi tasking isn't the answer. If he can multi task his job well enough to do other work then he should be multi tasking for his client. Ahhh Now we find out why you are so far of the mark. He isn't doing multiple contractrs. He's employed and also doing a contract. Hugely different.

Part time work generally pays a much higher day rate to compensate for the days being limited and to attract talent to the role. If you find the permanent job can't be automated then you may be in trouble, but I expect it will be manageable. Just get the correct tax code from HMRC and "don't sweat the small stuff."

What has part time work got to do with this? He's employed full time and wants to do a 'day rate' contract. Nothing part time there.

Him 'sweating the small stuff' is whether he'll lose his job, the gig or both. I'd hardly call those small.

[CheeseSlice]

I dont think I was referring to obvious issues; i think i was more so looking for pay/payment deductions etc. I wasnt looking for guidance or someone holding my hand on the workload front; thats all manageable.

And nobody has factored in that... We are working from home

Ignoring whether its combining brolly or perm jobs, etc.. Having two jobs on PAYE payroll is quite normal. When setting up the second job you complete a 'new starter checklist' (previously P46). This has an option to say you've already got a job and this is an additional one. This lets the taxman know to set up another tax code for that job to collect the correct taxes.

[cojak]

...provided the permanent contract of employment permits it.

I don’t know if he can manage it, let’s assume he can. The best thing for him to do is to juggle it and make sure that his permanent employer doesn’t find out.

And then figure the tax out via his SA.

[agentzero]

I know people doing this and are able to meet targets just fine. Many permanent jobs pay less because the work is easier, particularly in companies who are yet to discover automation. Just automate your own services and the job is easily 10% of the difficulty it would be when done manually. Perhaps people have been contracting so long they have forgotten that many permanent jobs are very easy but also pay proportionately less to account for this easiness and perceived job security.

As to your concern regarding the permanent job Human Resources, I don't see why you are worrying. For all they know you have other income streams. You could be paying yourself using a Limited Company or have a range of personal rental income. You are worrying without good reason. The other responses in this thread are reminiscent of people unable to multi-task well or who instead waste a lot of their day on this forum when they could be billing a second contract or part time work. I've done multiple contracts before and it's relatively easy if you are an organised person.

Part time work generally pays a much higher day rate to compensate for the days being limited and to attract talent to the role. If you find the permanent job can't be automated then you may be in trouble, but I expect it will be manageable. Just get the correct tax code from HMRC and "don't sweat the small stuff."

[Lance]

the way to make it work is to ensure that the contract is part-time. That way you can promise full time to the employer, and actually stand a chance of meeting that.
Make sure you track your hours for timesheets, and also to fend off any accusations that you are not doing what your paid to do.
Both the employer and they client need to know what you're doing.

In an ideal world both want the same work (designs, code, etc.) so you can charge them both for doing the same hours. Double bubble.

[Paralytic]

I dont think I was referring to obvious issues; i think i was more so looking for pay/payment deductions etc. I wasnt looking for guidance or someone holding my hand on the workload front; thats all manageable.

You asked for "implications" - you got them. If you wanted something more specific (payments), then you should have asked for that.

You can either keep your tax code the same as it is today with your employer, and also give that same tax code to your Umbrella, and be ready to pay the extra tax (and potentially interest) when you do your SA for that year (and HMRC might automatically change your tax code too), or estimate what your income from the Ubmrella will be, tell HMRC that, get a new tax code, which can be used by both your employer and Umbrella. You'll still need to do your SA for that year and pay/reclaim any difference.

And nobody has factored in that... We are working from home

In what way does that mitigate against both employer and Umbrella client wanting you on a call at the same time? And, will you still be 5 days from home in July?

[Dranzer]

Excellent responses: many thanks!

[northernladuk]

Thanks for responses,

ive heard many a people have done similar. If you can manage your workload; what is the issue?

I can't believe that is true at all. We've seen the odd person ask the question on here and nothing came of them and I the only time I've ever heard of a permie doing work on the side is when they get in to a lot of trouble over it.

As perm your time duing 9 to 5 belongs to the employer. If you have time to down tools and work on the sideline then you have time to do more work for your employer. If you do two hours on plan B then perm is paying you for no work. You can see how that will go down.

It's highly likely the contract will also require 8 hours and and will also be 9 to 5. It is a DAY rate contract as you said. They are paying you top dollar for your time and expect you to be more efficient than a perm so if you are doing perm work on their time they are going to be supremely pissed.

Managing your workload with an extra 8 hours in a day means both parties getting less than they are paying for and you 'getting away with it'. That's not professional.

There is no way you can do two to the satisfaction of both parties in a day. Don't let the greed of having two incomes make you blind to the requirements of both. That will only end in disaster. You aren't stupid, don't kid yourself you can do 16 hours in an 8 hours day just because all you can think of is the money.

People that have two roles generally have one that doesn't require the full 8 hours and is based on deliverables. They promise to do X by Y date. That allows them to work in their own time in evenings and weekends. A day rate contract is not one of those, it's them paying you for a day.

[DaveB]

With one contract and one perm you aren't going to be able to give a definitive annual salary figure for tax purposes to the payroll dept. of the permanent job as you don't know how long the contract will last. Best bet is to keep them separate and resolve the tax issues via self assessment. Your accountant should be able to sort the numbers out for you.

[Dranzer]

I dont think I was referring to obvious issues; i think i was more so looking for pay/payment deductions etc. I wasnt looking for guidance or someone holding my hand on the workload front; thats all manageable.

And nobody has factored in that... We are working from home

[perplexed]

Thanks for responses,

ive heard many a people have done similar. If you can manage your workload; what is the issue?

The issue quite simply is what your contract of perm employment says about external work.

Employer wants you at a meeting at 10am, workdays on 9-5pm.

Contract client wants you at meeting at 10:15am...

Good luck explaining to either you're not available.

I'd have thought the issues were obvious tbh.

[Paralytic]

Thanks for responses,

ive heard many a people have done similar. If you can manage your workload; what is the issue?

Other than many employment contracts banning (or needing to be aware of) second employments/engagements, particularly in the same area of business, how are going to manage employer and client expectations if/when they both want you in a meeting at the same time?

If you can do this, its great, but most employers will not be expecting you to be working elsewhere during "core" hours without prior agreement.

[Dranzer]

Thanks for responses,

ive heard many a people have done similar. If you can manage your workload; what is the issue?

[cojak]

And HR will certainly explain to you whether or not your contract of employment allows you to have 2 jobs at once.

[northernladuk]

The implications are that doing either clients work on the other clients time is likely to get you sacked and sued. Is that what you mean?

Speak to your HR and advise you'll be doing the extra work and what you should do about your tax code. I'm sure if you give them some figures they can work out your new tax code for both gigs?