Reply to: Statement of Work (SoW) being outside of IR35?

[eek]

HMRC would love for IR35 assessments to be that simple. But if they really believed that example they would have sent out 100s of thousands or IR35 tax demands over the last 20 years. But even HMRC know IR35 is not that simple.

Look at how it used to work.

Look at how it works as of April

Things are going to be very different.

[Fraidycat]

That wasn't my point - HMRC's favourite example is 2 Solicitors paid the same £60,000 (yes I know the example is insane). One is an employee one was using a limited company. The one using a limited company shouldn't be because they both do the same job.

HMRC would love for IR35 assessments to be that simple. But if they really believed that example they would have sent out 100s of thousands or IR35 tax demands over the last 20 years. But even HMRC know IR35 is not that simple.

[Fraidycat]

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

These days managers are more concerned with test code coverage (at least the managers at current client are), they dont care about LOCs.

Also tickets, they want to see the backlog cleared of outstanding defects and high priority features requests implemented.

Code commits are generally tied to JIRA ticket resolutions. I dont just bang out code for codes sake. There is normally a feature request or bug fix request behind every commit.

And I normally refactor/simplfy code as part of that work. But can also raise tickets for explicit refactoring as well and that may include removing more lines of code than adding.

[ladymuck]

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

My fella says he used to like deleting huge chucks of code from what his dev team produced as invariably they would recode it better in fewer lines.

[Paralytic]

I actually look inside the code commits, you can actually see what any developer has done within seconds with the visual code review systems we have these days.

Did your client know you were using their time/money to review other developers code?

[Paralytic]

To quote Kevlin Henney

"Code is a liability. Every line of code is a commitment: to maintain it; to explain it; to a direction."

And I will have to add, you need to test the code that is written. Is it quality? Is it the expected behaviour of the system?
Programming is not bashing keys like an automatron or monkey.

For anyone who cares about software quality,
ITT 2016 - Kevlin Henney - Seven Ineffective Coding Habits of Many Programmers
hence is a good talk from GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney - YouTube

When I was a code-monkey (or leading such a team), my favourite retort when a PM asked how many lines of code the team had done so far was along the lines of "we've done <lines of code> so far, but don't worry, we'll spend some more time making that number smaller".

Some got it, but many older generation PMs just didn't understand that LOC is probably once of the worst metrics to use.

[rocktronAMP]

I only base my analysis on hard evidence.

I can see the level of work done by every developer at the client site via Git.

When i say i provide at least £2000 a day of value to the client, it is based on that evidence and not just my opinion.

To quote Kevlin Henney

"Code is a liability. Every line of code is a commitment: to maintain it; to explain it; to a direction."

And I will have to add, you need to test the code that is written. Is it quality? Is it the expected behaviour of the system?
Programming is not bashing keys like an automatron or monkey.

For anyone who cares about software quality,
ITT 2016 - Kevlin Henney - Seven Ineffective Coding Habits of Many Programmers
hence is a good talk from GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney GOTO 2020 • Software Is Details • Kevlin Henney - YouTube

[northernladuk]

I’m not sure you’re right.
It would be easy for a client to simply issue an inside SDS based on known facts and leave the rest up to the contractor.
The choice to use an umbrella is the contractors. It makes sense but it’s the other way round to what you think.

He's kind of right but he's still got it wrong, as usual.

They have LTD's on board when they do the SDS. That means they will determine the role is inside AND THEN force them down the brolly route. So he's totally wrong that they won't deem LTD's inside. They will and then the contractor has a choice of FTC, brolly or agency PAYE.

What they won't do is deem them inside and then let them carry on as LTDs.

His whole post is nonsense in the way he's phrased it. He kinda gets the outcome right but not by his explaination.

[Lance]

There are no Ltd contractors who will be deemed inside by clients. They will be forced to use umbrellas.

I’m not sure you’re right.
It would be easy for a client to simply issue an inside SDS based on known facts and leave the rest up to the contractor.
The choice to use an umbrella is the contractors. It makes sense but it’s the other way round to what you think.

[eek]

There are no Ltd contractors who will be deemed inside by clients. They will be forced to use umbrellas.

Every Ltd company contractor that a company uses will be outside IR35 by definition.

So there will be no one for HMRC to point at and say those contractors are inside and therefore so are these ones that you gave just gave an outside determination to.

That wasn't my point - HMRC's favourite example is 2 Solicitors paid the same £60,000 (yes I know the example is insane). One is an employee one was using a limited company. The one using a limited company shouldn't be because they both do the same job.

As for your point all the umbrella workers and Limited Company contractors will appear on the same agency report.

The umbrella workers will have less details against their record (as they are being paid via PAYE so no need to report the company involved) however your company would appear on the report. And given an agency report with 100 names on and only 2 limited companies that could be of interest.

[Fraidycat]

There are no Ltd contractors who will be deemed inside by clients. They will be forced to use umbrellas.

Every Ltd company contractor that a company uses will be outside IR35 by definition.

So there will be no one for HMRC to point at and say those contractors are inside and therefore so are these ones that you gave just gave an outside determination to.

[eek]

My point is if you add enough value you can negotiate outside working practices that other contractors wont get.
The client will be much more willing to accommodate you.

And my point is that come April - you can't as HMRC will be adopting a very clear role based viewpoint (as demonstrated in all examples HMRC have ever used regarding IR35)

[Fraidycat]

And HMRC will just say as the other developers are inside this one is as well.

Value added doesn't matter when HMRC regards IR35 as role based.

My point is if you add enough value you can negotiate outside working practices that other contractors wont get.
The client will be much more willing to accommodate you.

[eek]

I actually look inside the code commits, you can actually see what any developer has done within seconds with the visual code review systems we have these days.

Most really struggle to do much, either because they don't suit the role, or are not very good or because they are lazy.

And it is not because they have been given hard tasks is the reason they don't do much. The developers who don't produce much (most of them) get given the easy tasks, no point giving them the hard stuff because they would never be able to do it.

It really it is a case of Prices law: the square root of people do 50% of the work.

100 developers in a company, the top 10 will do half the work. The next 10 will do half the rest (25%) etc

Its fascinating stuff and applies to lots of different fields not just software development.

But you are a developer

The client has other developers who are inside IR35

so in HMRC's eyes you are inside IR35

And productivity isn't any indicator that you are outside IR35

[Fraidycat]

You use git commits as evidence of value delivered? I assume you use quantity of code as the differentiator, since there's no way you can determine the quality across every developer? How very 1990s.

I really do think you have a very blinkered view of how the market will be post April this year (and most likely, based on my experience of those that like to shout about their own skills, of your own abilities).

I actually look inside the code commits, you can actually see what any developer has done within seconds with the visual code review systems we have these days.

Most really struggle to do much, either because they don't suit the role, or are not very good or because they are lazy.

And it is not because they have been given hard tasks is the reason they don't do much. The developers who don't produce much (most of them) get given the easy tasks, no point giving them the hard stuff because they would never be able to do it.

It really it is a case of Prices law: the square root of people do 50% of the work.

100 developers in a company, the top 10 will do half the work. The next 10 will do half the rest (25%) etc

Its fascinating stuff and applies to lots of different fields not just software development.