Originally posted by Andy Hallett
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Reply to: Failed IR35 Review - QDOS
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Previously on "Failed IR35 Review - QDOS"
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Last push for this event IR35 Contractor Roundtable Event
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app
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Originally posted by BlasterBates View PostThe problem with agile is that the contractor's workload is dependent on what is placed by the Product Owner in the Kanban board. This makes him fully integrated into the team, as the contractor is interchangeable with any other developer in the team.
In order to act as a contractor outside IR35 there needs to be a seperate board or set of tasks defined and carried out by the contractor.
This is one thing that struck me when I first started working agile, that control is exerted by the board and its priorities, you no longer have your "area" in the past you would have been given a longterm task lasting several months.
Of course, if it is the case that either you or a permanent employee could deliver the same story then, in all reality, you are a disguised employee anyway and should be working under IR35.
So, nothing to do with agile; all to do with the role you're doing and whether its different from what permies are doing.
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Originally posted by PerfectStorm View PostYou know that the point is to use QDOS's feedback to get the contract change - which will almost always be agreed to?
It's not like Permie land where you get what you're given, agencies won't say this but they accept and process changes ALL THE TIME.
"I won't be starting on monday then, can you inform the client?"
Hays: "Erm...we'll add them as amendments."
qh
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You know that the point is to use QDOS's feedback to get the contract change - which will almost always be agreed to?
It's not like Permie land where you get what you're given, agencies won't say this but they accept and process changes ALL THE TIME.
Taking a review with an Inside determination due to one point, and not changing that one point, is madness. Push the start day out if they won't amend it in time. Or just sign it with amends the night before, in the morning on your way out etc - you have more leverage here than you think.Last edited by PerfectStorm; 2 July 2020, 07:55.
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Originally posted by cannon999 View PostWhilst we are on the subject.. I have downloaded a template from QDOS which has 'total price for this contract' field. I am putting the following down:
'Estimated £xxx based on an assumption of 1760 billed hours between the commencement date and the expected completion date.
This figure is an estimate only. Ongoing billing occurs as per the hourly rate as detailed below. There is no obligation from the CLIENT to provide said amount of hours of work and there is no obligation from the CONSULTANCY to accept any work.'
Does that sound ok?
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Originally posted by cannon999 View PostThen this template makes no sense? Why does it have a total price and an hourly rate lol
I can't remember signing for a fixed price piece of work that included an hourly rate in the past.
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Originally posted by northernladuk View PostNot really. The fact you've mentioned hours, just summed up the hours vs price per hour and then stated it's an estimate and can change doesn't change anything from the norm. All you are doing is doing the sums. Still looks like a 3 monther at £xxx per hour. You are just demonstrating the outcome of the flexible pounds per hour agreement.
Total price is total price. All in, no deviations or stipulation of when the work is done. You will get this widget for £xxxx by XX date. Period.
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Originally posted by cannon999 View PostWhilst we are on the subject.. I have downloaded a template from QDOS which has 'total price for this contract' field. I am putting the following down:
'Estimated £xxx based on an assumption of 1760 billed hours between the commencement date and the expected completion date.
This figure is an estimate only. Ongoing billing occurs as per the hourly rate as detailed below. There is no obligation from the CLIENT to provide said amount of hours of work and there is no obligation from the CONSULTANCY to accept any work.'
Does that sound ok?
Total price is total price. All in, no deviations or stipulation of when the work is done. You will get this widget for £xxxx by XX date. Period.
Leave a comment:
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Whilst we are on the subject.. I have downloaded a template from QDOS which has 'total price for this contract' field. I am putting the following down:
'Estimated £xxx based on an assumption of 1760 billed hours between the commencement date and the expected completion date.
This figure is an estimate only. Ongoing billing occurs as per the hourly rate as detailed below. There is no obligation from the CLIENT to provide said amount of hours of work and there is no obligation from the CONSULTANCY to accept any work.'
Does that sound ok?
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Originally posted by malvolio View PostGenerally speaking SC - or any clearance requirement - can be ignored for IR35 since it applies to everyone. If you can offer a properly and currently cleared substitute that meets the client's security needs (always remembering that clearance criteria vary with the role) then it should not mean that an RoS is impossible. However...
The Rule is "reasonably unfettered" - "reasonably" has a clear meaning, there has to be a good commercial (i.e. not policy or simple unwillingness) reason not to accept the offered worker, such as lacking a relevant technical ability, and "unfettered" means it's not subject to an onerous approvals process beyond checking suitability (e.g., "we won't accept one anyway"...).
And, of course, the subbie has to take over the whole existing contract and all its Ts&Cs in its entirety, and not just be subcontracted to do some element of the contracted work.
Actually doing it is the golden bullet, the right to do it, providing is it genuinely reasonably unfettered*, should be a golden bullet but is easily side-lined if you don't meet the above criteria.
* A case was lost some years ago when the client's HR manager said in court that although there was an RoS clause, the client would not accept a subbie under any circumstances. And was allowed to get away with that breach of contract law by te judge.
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Originally posted by cannon999 View PostAre there any actual real cases of IT contractors being investigated and found inside?
That case study about agile being 'inside' looks completely ridiculous to me. So if the client controls what work needs doing - this means the contractor is inside? That sounds completely false. Who should decide what work needs doing then? The contractor?
These are not simple decisions and are emphatically not generalised statements of in or out. Every one has its own peculiarities.
Then again, the word "ridiculous" can only accurately be applied to the IR35 legislation. Everything else is simply random guesswork until it gets to court.
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Originally posted by BlasterBates View PostIn order to act as a contractor outside IR35 there needs to be a seperate board or set of tasks defined and carried out by the contractor.
I also think that this is ridiculous but it shows the direction where the things are going. I can disagree with that, but the taxman with unlimited funds eager to lodge cases even when there is remotest chance of win creates chilling effect for both sides. When clients read such guidance, are they going to happily risk having a fight? That's why I believe most of work moving forward will be inside, even if that is outside in all but name, just to be "safe". The guidance also gives pointers how to ensure the contract is inside.
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Are there any actual real cases of IT contractors being investigated and found inside?
That case study about agile being 'inside' looks completely ridiculous to me. So if the client controls what work needs doing - this means the contractor is inside? That sounds completely false. Who should decide what work needs doing then? The contractor?
Leave a comment:
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The problem with agile is that the contractor's workload is dependent on what is placed by the Product Owner in the Kanban board. This makes him fully integrated into the team, as the contractor is interchangeable with any other developer in the team.
In order to act as a contractor outside IR35 there needs to be a seperate board or set of tasks defined and carried out by the contractor.
This is one thing that struck me when I first started working agile, that control is exerted by the board and its priorities, you no longer have your "area" in the past you would have been given a longterm task lasting several months.
Leave a comment:
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