Reply to: Day Rate Negotiation?

[northernladuk]

Just place ‘Terraform expert’ on your CV and voila, no need to get out of bed for less than £800pd.

Well that might get you a gig with Starfleet.

[Bluenose]

Just place ‘Terraform expert’ on your CV and voila, no need to get out of bed for less than £800pd.

[WTFH]

If I'm contacted by an agent who knows me, they will know roughly how much I'm on and won't even bother contacting me if they don't think it's worth my time.
If I'm contacted by an agent who doesn't know me, I'll tell them the top end of my rate card. If they baulk at that, I'll ask them what they think they'd get for me, and that will tell me how well they know my market.

But if I'm contacting an agent I don't know about a role that has been advertised, the first thing I do is try to work out who the client is, then contact one of my agents to see why they didn't think it was suitable for me.

[PerfectStorm]

Sometimes winning a gig for a little bit less than the ideal is better than going in too high, getting nothing, and spending 6 months looking.

Eventually charging days at a lesser rate earns you more than holding out for big ones, as every day lost is a day you could've earned

[billybiro]

You hit the nail on the head, you put in for a high rate and risk losing the gig. That's the decision you have to take.

I'm not entirely convinced that this is always a bad strategy.

If the agent has already seen your CV, has some idea of who you are, what you've done and what skills you possess, then never underestimate the agent's desire to flex his salesman's muscle and try to coax you down from your lofty position. Even more so if he thinks that the client would also be impressed by your credentials.

It's all part of the game, and the agent will often see it as a challenge to try to get you to take a lower rate than the one you first quote, even though the rate you end up on might well be a very good rate anyway (if you'd cockily high-balled it in the first place).

Doesn't always work of course and YMMV, but doesn't always fail either.

[BlasterBates]

No, he absolutely is on £700. I have seen the invoices myself. He's not a dick wagger either so I'd have no reason to doubt him.

Ultimately, I'm a simple bloke with low outgoings. You wouldn't see me in a Q8 any day. I'm happy to go lower but at the same time I would hate to think I was a soft touch and missed out on that extra £100 a day because the recruiter took me for a mug.

Apply for a similar role at that rate and see what happens.

[northernladuk]

No, he absolutely is on £700. I have seen the invoices myself. He's not a dick wagger either so I'd have no reason to doubt him.

The fact his letting you see his invoices would indicate he is.

So putting everything in to context, do you believe you are his peer then?

[ApeShape]

He's probably spinning you BS on his rate!

No, he absolutely is on £700. I have seen the invoices myself. He's not a dick wagger either so I'd have no reason to doubt him.

Ultimately, I'm a simple bloke with low outgoings. You wouldn't see me in a Q8 any day. I'm happy to go lower but at the same time I would hate to think I was a soft touch and missed out on that extra £100 a day because the recruiter took me for a mug.

[KinooOrKinog]

Certainly for me, the answer to that is always 'it depends'. One rate doesn't always apply. So whenever an agent asks me for my rate I tell them that I'm fairly flexible on money, but obviously there's a starting point. What's the client's budget? If their budget is in the ballpark for the location I tell them I'm happy to hear more.

[BlasterBates]

700 is pretty exceptional, above 500 is a is a good rate.

[BolshieBastard]

Any tips from the pro's on how to get a decent day rate? I have a mate who seems to be regularly smashing the £700 mark and we're in the same field. He's a bit more experienced yes, but I'm starting to feel a bit left out especially as I get better myself. Seems like a lot of recruiters want to know my 'day rate' I'm doing my best to refrain from discussing this with them however. It would be great if there was some way to gauge how much the end user is 'actually' paying and what cut the recruiter is taking.

Any thoughts? Just high ball and risk losing a gig? Probably easier to do with a big war chest.

Bit of a rabbit warren this I know...

He's probably spinning you BS on his rate!

[ladymuck]

...

Remember the final test is always "Are you happy with what you get"... it's a risk/reward scenario!

That's the salient point.

I don't care what other people charge. I know what I need to charge as a minimum and I keep an eye on the market rate so I know I'm not underselling myself.

I find that, by not being greedy and chasing the max rate at all times, I get lots of repeat business from clients and have been fortunate to work in some interesting areas. Clients paying nosebleed rates expect a heck of lot in return. I'm not willing to put that much effort into work!

Generally, you will never be content if you spend your time comparing yourself against other people. You will never have the full picture of who they are, how they got there and what they're doing.

[malvolio]

"Well I usually start at £shedloads a day depending on the role and location" was my usual line, then argue from there.

Not really looking these days, but the last few conversations have been along the lines of "I would need a minimum £xxx" and they either say they can't meet that - not a problem obviously - or we have a discussion about where we might end up. Then again, they have come to me, I haven't applied to them, which changes the relationship somewhat.

Remember the final test is always "Are you happy with what you get"... it's a risk/reward scenario!

[northernladuk]

I have a mate who seems to be regularly smashing the £700 mark and we're in the same field.

You believe this? You've seen the evidence?

He's a bit more experienced yes

So if you compare his gigs to yours they are definitely more senior?

but I'm starting to feel a bit left out especially as I get better myself.

Chasing someone else rate isn't going to end well so you need to do some research and see what's out there and your skill level and re-align your own thinking.

Seems like a lot of recruiters want to know my 'day rate' I'm doing my best to refrain from discussing this with them however. It would be great if there was some way to gauge how much the end user is 'actually' paying and what cut the recruiter is taking.

Apart from knowing what market rate is there isn't. The client isn't paying you after all. What rate is a standard opening gambit from recruiters and I'm sure in a vast majority of cases they aren't attempting to shaft you. I'd expect (hope) they are trying to gauge whether it's worth their time progressing. If you are like your mate and say 700 quid when it's a poorly paid 400 quid rate it's not worth spending any more time. If you quote market rate and the agent has market rate on his paper then it's worth progressing and you can negotiate rate later when you are in a better position to do so.

Any thoughts? Just high ball and risk losing a gig? Probably easier to do with a big war chest.

Depends what you want. Even with a big warchest throwing away perfectly good gigs by overestimating your rates seems a pretty poor tactic. You'd need a very big rise to cover a months extra bench time because you couldn't be flexible.

Spend a bit of time on the job sites looking at gigs you are absolutely sure you can do, not the ones you think you could or you could have a stab and jot down the rates. Have a look at the spread and averages and then apply to what you've been getting in the past.
There is a site called itjobswatch that scrapes the job sites and gives you a ton of stats about rates, number of roles etc but I'd take it with a large pinch of salt. What recruiters advertise rates at is often well above reality to try hoodwink people in to applying. It will also be bloated by the number of fake roles advertised for fishing. Have a look and see if anything rings true.

But forget the 700 a day. I don't think I've seen many, if any, contractors on that. I am in the NW though so maybe London is different. Either way that is a pretty exceptional rate for most of us.

[BlasterBates]

You hit the nail on the head, you put in for a high rate and risk losing the gig. That's the decision you have to take.

No harm in starting high when you're looking and drop it if there are no opportunities. If you can't afford to wait you should just try and get a modestly better rate.