Reply to: Help needed!

[LondonManc]

Sorry to hear it but if you've been discussing rates during your notice period (other than, yay, been offered a new one on £50/day more than here) then you're on thin ice.

1/ Exit cleanly - if you've got all your timesheets signed off, send a final invoice and (keeping a copy) the signed timesheets to the agent. If you need to pursue outstanding payment, there are guidelines in place to recovering it, as mentioned previously

2/ Learn your lessons - you're a business, no longer an employee; you have certain rights but nothing compared to what you have as an employee. You are compensated accordingly in your day rate.

3/ Get looking - get your cv together, get back on the market and reason for leaving (if asked) is contract cut short. It's happening a lot at the moment.

4/ Read your rental agreement; if you're committed to the full term of it, explain the situation to the letting agent and look at getting out of it if you can (or sub-letting to recover some of the cost if allowed).

[Taita]

Can someone explain why I have no rights and cannot challenge this unfair treatment?

Limited Companies do not have 'employee' rights.

[WTFH]

If the client does it, you suck it up, sorry. If the agent does it, you consider going legal.

[psychocandy]

To be fair to OP, shes made a few mistakes and things have gone badly. It is a shock.

But admit it, even those of us who've been treated like this before, do you really just shrug and say oh well? Come on - everyone's going to be a bit pissed off arent they?

I remember getting shafted when I was a permie. Employer walked a few people on trumped up charges and got them to sign a compromise agreement rather than go through the proper redundancy process. You realise sod all you can do about it but I remember I was steaming mad at the time!

[psychocandy]

My second contract so shocked! Can I not go to a tribunal or do them for ill treatment, emotional and reputational damage?

Yes initially I was given a months notice and then 2 weeks later walked out.

How though? Even if they did do anything really bad its your word against theirs.

Here's their story. They gave you 4 weeks notice (no problem there). A few weeks in they caught you discussing rates and your work had started not being up to scratch (they're words but you can never in a million years prove otherwise!), so they dismissed you immediately.

[Hobosapien]

Am sure improving your negotiations would help a lot more over your career than actively discussing and comparing rates. All you are finding out is how bad at negotiating you are?

Is there a guide anywhere on handling contract negotiations, specifically for contractors that tend to have to negotiate with an agency that are not known for transparency or truth telling?

Feels like this is one of those missing tomes along with how to do parenting where you're at home with a new baby hours after childbirth with that 'oh crap WTF do we do now' aftershock.

Maybe the best negotiators are happy they get top money for a gig but are so tough in their approach they forget they don't get all the gigs. Better to be in work on an average rate or at home surfing on the bench waiting for the 'big one'? Year end accounts probably one way of working that out.

Now if there's some approach that means you get all the gigs (presuming the negotiation happens after interview so can be shown that failure is down to wanting too much rather than not even getting the interview due to being 'too expensive') and at the best rate possible then I'm all ears.

[northernladuk]

Bit extreme example - isn't it? Private lunchtime conversations could do the work better I guess.

Not really. You also don't know who else the other person is going to tell as well. It's the same in many areas of business. People just don't generally discuss their marks ups, rates, percentages etc. Listen maybe but not actively discuss. Obviously there is the odd time it's possibly going to work in your favour but start of with never discuss and when you know how the game works then possibly but not as a general rule.

Benefited from that multiple times as it gives overview of what customer pay to my peers, you'll know if there is point ask for a raise or just quietly accept renewal if you already on top of the ladder. Some take it as personal insult (if they are "underpaid"), but it just useful information than can help with negotiation.

Am sure improving your negotiations would help a lot more over your career than actively discussing and comparing rates. All you are finding out is how bad at negotiating you are?

Contract is contract, if the clause is there, then there should not be a rate discussions.

Indeed but you see how often on here people don't read or understand their contracts.

[Sub]

Get everyone in a room and start comparing rates

Bit extreme example - isn't it? Private lunchtime conversations could do the work better I guess.

Nothing good come from it for anyone really.

Benefited from that multiple times as it gives overview of what customer pay to my peers, you'll know if there is point ask for a raise or just quietly accept renewal if you already on top of the ladder. Some take it as personal insult (if they are "underpaid"), but it just useful information than can help with negotiation.

Also check your contract.

Contract is contract, if the clause is there, then there should not be a rate discussions.

[northernladuk]

There is nothing wrong to discuss rates, as soon as you not breaking contractual obligation or promise to not discuss it (agency sometimes asking for this). It is in interest of your business to know about market as much as possible. As termination reason it seems as reasonable as lack of shine on your shoes.

But that just isn't correct. Before discussing rates you've got a number of contractors quite happily doing what they signed up to do quite happily.
Get everyone in a room and start comparing rates and you've suddenly got a number of hacked off contractors that are going to be complaining to their agents, looking to jump ship or be demoralised and less productive because they are being paid less than the guy next to them. Nothing good come from it for anyone really.

Don't discuss rates, make sure you've negotiated the best rate you can and get your head down and work. You can listen and if someone let's their ls slip then fair enough but don't get in to a discussion about yours.

Also check your contract. I'm sure people have said on here they have been contractually obliged not to so you are in breach I'd you did.

[Sub]

A few weeks after that I received a call from my agency who informed me that HR has received a complaint from the manager that the contractors through this agency have been discussing rates with other contracts and this is causing unnecessary disruption amongst the team. As far as I know I haven't specifically gone to others and discussed rates, if there was any rate discussion that was a 2 way conversation from that other person too. Is is common to be giving a warning through HR to your agency for the discussion of rates? My experience to date is that many contractors do discuss rates.

There is nothing wrong to discuss rates, as soon as you not breaking contractual obligation or promise to not discuss it (agency sometimes asking for this). It is in interest of your business to know about market as much as possible. As termination reason it seems as reasonable as lack of shine on your shoes. But truth is that customer can terminate you immediately without any reason, well, in most cases. Despite it may look unfair and be painful it is better to concentrate on finding new gig and getting your money for delivered days. Never give a chance to agency to easily escape from last invoice payment.

[Milkyway]

@OP - I know its all a mess since you are new to contracting... but remember that contracting is a Business.
You need act and think like a business person... not an individual / person.
If at all anything, learn from this experience, and move on. Book it to your Business "cookbook".

Also do not think about tribunals, and things like emotional stress, etc.
Discussing rates??? As a business, you would never disclose your tender quotes to anyone, would you???

Also, stress is part of running a business.

You are a business person!!! If you don't like this model of thinking, you will need to get back to being a permie/employee somewhere.

[stek]

How can they not pay? Isnt that illegal? You need to be paid for days worked.

It's B2B now, you now need to put your Ltd's credit controller hat on and chase them for payment.

[SueEllen]

How can they not pay? Isnt that illegal? You need to be paid for days worked.

It may be "illegal" but who is going to enforce it?

[northernladuk]

How can they not pay? Isnt that illegal? You need to be paid for days worked.

It is but this does appear tohave an element of naivity around it. You've never been in or seen situations where legally payment is required but has been argued or just withheld for a short period through bloody mindedness or anything?

What is your opt in/out status. A common line is to refuse to sign your time sheets and your contract says no pay without timesheets. Read up on this to be prepared.

http://www.contractoruk.com/agencies...pt-out.html_0/

[eek]

You will be paid for the days you worked, your employer will pay you; ie your Ltd.

Your Ltd getting paid is a different battle....

And that will depend on what the contract between your company and the agency is and whether you were opted in or opted out of agency regulations.

Step 1 is to send all signed time sheets to the agency and an invoice for the amount covered by those time sheets.

Step 2 is to either get the other days covered by a signed time sheet by asking someone who was at the end client and had the authority to sign time sheets and send that plus an invoice to the agency or to send a second unsigned time sheet to the agency and an invoice for the days you were at the end client sat in their premises and no more. That means a half / quarter day for the day you were asked to leave at most. Then wait a month and pass it to a debt collection agency to retrieve.

Then wait to see if they pay you and if not pass it on to a debt collection agency and finally a solicitor - if you want to go that far...