Reply to: State of the Market

[GJABS]

For regular contractors in the UK, who don't have particular entrepreneurial skills or are not blessed with the gift of original thinking, it seems to me to be far from clear what we should have done over the past 10 years to mitigate this problem.

To answer my own question, I think part of the problem is that IT has become too easy.
Back in the day, computer programming was intellectually difficult and complex, and this difficulty provided a barrier to entry because many candidates were not capable of getting up to speed with the technology.

Nowadays it is a lot easier due to frameworks and GUIs, resulting in millions being able to gain the skills.

Of course it is true that it is not so easy to do programming -well-, but commercially this is often not mandatory if it can be done ok in a so-so manner - so doing it well won't pay the big bucks any more.

Maybe the solution is to look towards the next technology that has not yet been made "easy", where you have to be quite clever in order to do it at all in the first place. AI is an obvious one, but I'm sure there are others.

(..s*d's law will mean I will turn out to not to be clever enough lol..)

[Fraidycat]

In a global market you need to make yourself "special" somehow

There is nothing special that bob cant also do.


Just look at these two handsome chaps. They got 2 of the top 3 top tech jobs in the world:

[dsc]

Yet you don't mention what your specialism is? I doubt it is anything really specialised at all, that anyone else with general experience and a decent IQ couldn't pick up within a few months..

I'd say it doesn't need to be anything special, you just need to know where there's a lack of knowledgeable people and specialise in that. When that stops being a niche, move on to something else. In a global market you need to make yourself "special" somehow, especially now when there's 2 generations cross country fighting for a limited amount of positions.

Also, it's funny that a year or so ago, remote was all the jazz, but now suddenly that is bad as it opens up candidate pools substantially.

[CoolCat]

Hardly surprising because they are now here so there is nothing you can do about it.

I will ignore the blatant racism

We could easily stop issuing visas to Indian nationals with generic skills, we could easily stop renewing visas for those already here not already granted indefinite leave to remain, we could easily start taxing them at least as much as locals, we could easily do a lot of things.

[Fraidycat]

I have become rather specialised myself

Yet you don't mention what your specialism is? I doubt it is anything really specialised at all, that anyone else with general experience and a decent IQ couldn't pick up within a few months..

[GJABS]

Correct, you cannot compete with a generic/commoditized skillset and expect to maintain a contract rate or permie salary that resembles something you might have enjoyed until recently, especially if you started during the dotcom boom. I'm sorry for your loss (only partly joking). No one owes you a living. Competing might still mean a significant reduction in expected income, especially as more highly skilled roles begin to become commoditized. I have become rather specialised myself (albeit in a transferrable skillset, not in some arbitrary software framework or coding language), and I am not remotely complacent about the risks to my future income, so I plan accordingly, as best I can.

But, let's be absolutely honest, if you had a generic skillset and didn't realise 10 or more years ago that it was heading in this direction, then you've been extraordinarily naïve. You aren't the only one, there are many like you, evidently in this thread.
...

You seem to be implying that the remedy to generic skillsets becoming commoditized (and rates to fall as a result) is to acquire specialised skillsets.
But isn't "specialised" just another word for "rare"?
The problem we have is that a small proportion of the circa 1 billion Indian population (and other nations) have decided to pursue IT as a career, and work for western companies either local or remote. While most of these have acquired generic skillsets themselves (competing with us), isn't there a chance that some of them might also learn the same specialist skills that you have, and compete with you as a result?

For regular contractors in the UK, who don't have particular entrepreneurial skills or are not blessed with the gift of original thinking, it seems to me to be far from clear what we should have done over the past 10 years to mitigate this problem.

[sadkingbilly]

is this the whining code monkey thread? - asking for a friend.

or maybe the whining Powerpoint Monkey thread?

AAAH! - it's this one!

[jamesbrown]

Thats impossible now with fully remote jobs getting more common post covid.

We cant compete with those in locations with much lower costs of living.

At previous client, there was a mid level permie guy based in Greece on 30K and Senior guy based in spain on 50K, both were getting high end pay in their locations and experience levels. Both getting paid half of what they would get in the UK.

And those in East Europe are even cheaper than those in Greece and Spain.

We should probably count ourselves lucky that India and China are in very different timezones to us and East Africans aren't into IT.

It is easy to say 'reskill', but those in Greece/Spain/East Europe are all going to be reskilling at the same time as well.

On a off topic but related note:

China are producing cheap EV cars now. The US and Germans wont be able to compete, so they will to slap large tariffs on Chinese cars. So much for 'competing in the global market place' Our large corporations get government help when they cant compete which includes being able to import cheap IT workers. We get thrown under the bus.

Correct, you cannot compete with a generic/commoditized skillset and expect to maintain a contract rate or permie salary that resembles something you might have enjoyed until recently, especially if you started during the dotcom boom. I'm sorry for your loss (only partly joking). No one owes you a living. Competing might still mean a significant reduction in expected income, especially as more highly skilled roles begin to become commoditized. I have become rather specialised myself (albeit in a transferrable skillset, not in some arbitrary software framework or coding language), and I am not remotely complacent about the risks to my future income, so I plan accordingly, as best I can.

But, let's be absolutely honest, if you had a generic skillset and didn't realise 10 or more years ago that it was heading in this direction, then you've been extraordinarily naïve. You aren't the only one, there are many like you, evidently in this thread.

As an aside, you seem to have a rather poor understanding of how markets (should) work. Absent politics, it would be a brainless opportunity to consume as many of those (underpriced) EV as we can possibly consume. Free money! Competing means finding productive outlets when others become unproductive. It means upheaval. It means that people will be caught napping and lose their source of income. Politicians and electorates struggle with this, but it's really quite childlike to expect that local markets can be successfully manipulated in your favour. Immigration really isn't the problem, it's much closer to home.

[Cookielove]

That’s the situation at my current place we are fully remote but lot of people are based in Romania and Poland so £50k is a fantastic salary …not so in London ….remote working has changed things too..:it’s not about not upskilling!! …good post @Fraidycat….

[Fraidycat]

The thing is, you should be able to complete in a global marketplace...
Learn to compete, which means reskilling when your skillset becomes oversupplied or in low demand.

Thats impossible now with fully remote jobs getting more common post covid.

We cant compete with those in locations with much lower costs of living.

At previous client, there was a mid level permie guy based in Greece on 30K and Senior guy based in spain on 50K, both were getting high end pay in their locations and experience levels. Both getting paid half of what they would get in the UK.

And those in East Europe are even cheaper than those in Greece and Spain.

We should probably count ourselves lucky that India and China are in very different timezones to us and Africans aren't into IT.

It is easy to say 'reskill', but those in Greece/Spain/East Europe are all going to be reskilling at the same time as well.

On a off topic but related note:

China are producing cheap EV cars now. The US and Germans wont be able to compete, so they will to slap large tariffs on Chinese cars. So much for 'competing in the global market place' Our large corporations get government help when they cant compete which includes being able to import cheap IT workers. We get thrown under the bus.

[jamesbrown]

The thing is, you should be able to complete in a global marketplace. It has hardly been a recent phenomenon. Anyone who was left napping while the generic IT/coding/testing/PM skillsets became heavily commoditized probably should've woken up a bit sooner and made a plan. In my experience, people who complain endlessly about other people "taking their jobs" are insufficiently focused on their own agency. Many of us have probably worked overseas. Many people come from overseas to work here. Learn to compete, which means reskilling when your skillset becomes oversupplied or in low demand. I thought that's what contracting was all about...

[Cookielove]

I’ve worked with many Indian nationals and have nothing against them …it’s a fact though that due to visa etc there has been a noticeable impact…they even say so themselves …it’s like the emperors new clothes on here hey ho! Have a good day enjoy the sunshine 🌞

[Cookielove]

If we all decamped en masse to another country the locals would be saying the exact same thing… it’s a fact …job market been impacted simple as….factual !

[Cookielove]

Ahh!! It’s not racism it’s facts …when anyone says number have increased this is the line that comes out…😳. Numbers are numbers pure and simple …

[eek]

Totally agree! It’s a big problem …I said this in the other thread about visa sponsorship and got set upon by dsc and few others …

Hardly surprising because they are now here so there is nothing you can do about it.

I will ignore the blatant racism