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Previously on "State of the Market"

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  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by willendure View Post
    In my personal calculation I was working on an assumption of £1000/month pension contribution, and about £600 in expenses, and maybe around £100 in umbrella fees approximately. That all seems to put me at abour £200/month better off on the outside @ 450 case. Seems pretty shocking given that the gross earnings/month would be about $4K higher.
    In my case, I think it is actually Scottish income tax bands that are making the difference (practically socialism up here!). You don't get hit by the scottish income tax bands on dividends, only on PAYE. Higher rate in Scotland is 42% and kicks in about £6.6K lower.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheDude
    replied
    Manager has assured me he has renewed contract but not a word from agency.

    Last day the 5th March and if contract expires I will loses all access permissions which were incredibly tedious to acquire.

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post

    remember I said without travel costs - as soon as an inside IR35 contract talks about actually visiting an office - the maths stops working unless the location is very nearby.

    When this was implemented (heck back when expenses rules were changed for umbrellas back in 2016) I pointed out that the end result was people would only be able to take local contracts if the contract was inside.

    other posters also pointed that out at the time as well
    I haven't had an Inside yet and obviously when I do - as sadly I am sure I will one day - it will depend on the daily rate but it has killed working away from home, although I could probably take a commute on the chin.

    Problem with commuting by train is going in twice a week isn't much cheaper than going in five days a week.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by willendure View Post

    To give a rough idea you could try this calculator.

    https://www.contractorcalculator.co....alculator.aspx

    That gave monthly £5,365 outside @ 450 and £6,148 inside @ 650, or a difference of £782 better on the inside one.

    In my personal calculation I was working on an assumption of £1000/month pension contribution, and about £600 in expenses, and maybe around £100 in umbrella fees approximately. That all seems to put me at abour £200/month better off on the outside @ 450 case. Seems pretty shocking given that the gross earnings/month would be about $4K higher.
    remember I said without travel costs - as soon as an inside IR35 contract talks about actually visiting an office - the maths stops working unless the location is very nearby.

    When this was implemented (heck back when expenses rules were changed for umbrellas back in 2016) I pointed out that the end result was people would only be able to take local contracts if the contract was inside.

    other posters also pointed that out at the time as well
    Last edited by eek; Today, 10:20.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post
    Unless you have travel costs you can’t be earning less on £650 inside than £450 outside.
    To give a rough idea you could try this calculator.

    https://www.contractorcalculator.co....alculator.aspx

    That gave monthly £5,365 outside @ 450 and £6,148 inside @ 650, or a difference of £782 better on the inside one.

    In my personal calculation I was working on an assumption of £1000/month pension contribution, and about £600 in expenses, and maybe around £100 in umbrella fees approximately. That all seems to put me at abour £200/month better off on the outside @ 450 case. Seems pretty shocking given that the gross earnings/month would be about $4K higher.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Unless you have travel costs you can’t be earning less on £650 inside than £450 outside.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Hybrid roles - for me this is the perfect arangement. 2 days in the office, see people, get meetings done face-to-face. 3 days wfh, peace and quiet to get on with it.

    Inside IR35 - I am currently on 450 outside, recently looked at a 650 inside role, and I would actually be making less in that role! The difference is unbelievable. The only way I could do it (and I would do it), would be to take the inside role but divert the max 60K into my pension to lower the tax bill.

    The way things are with the "irrational exuberence" around the Mag 7 tech stocks is so much like the dotcom era. Except the market right now feels like the dotcom crash, since in the UK at least there is no accompanying market buzz. What will things be like once the correction comes? I am saving every penny I can right now in fear of things getting even worse for a good few years.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    The way I see it, going from contract to perm is like...

    "Hey, do you want to do this same job for half the money?"

    "Hmm, ehh, let me think about that for a minute..."

    "Oh come on, at least you get job security, you get to stay here forever!"

    "Ahhh, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes!!"

    Leave a comment:


  • GJABS
    replied
    Originally posted by Unix View Post

    I'm not laughing at that, it's that you equate everyone to your own circumstance.
    I've had a thought about what I said. I think I was mistaken, actually. While it is true that there are some contractors who make £400/day, I now accept I was wrong probably, and that there will be some, and possibly many, who make a lot more. More power to their elbow- we need to celebrate and support this.

    Leave a comment:


  • edison
    replied
    Hardly had a sniff of anything worth going for in the last three months but suddenly five roles have appeared this week (contract, perm and FTC) and I've applied for one contract and one perm role.

    Some of the stuff I do is a bit niche, so for me at least, I can see some small green shoots of recovery. But not getting too excited yet.
    Last edited by edison; 23 February 2024, 16:12.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied
    March 2024 starts next week. The market is bad. I hate this. Starting to get more than a little anxious now.
    ​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • edison
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    It depends on the clients attitude to the contractor. Away days isn't really control, there is a lot more to it, particularly around the way you work day to day and that's unlikely to change. MoO and RoS need demonstrating to really be a pillar. It's possible a client will keep giving a contractor work created MoO and RoS is generally just a sham anyway.

    So yes.... if there is a seismic shift from one way of working to another then yes outside to perm is safe. But in reality in a vast number of gigs (in the old days) it will be nothing but paperwork and the contractor/now perm just carries on. You'd have a very clear and different way of working, completely different to the perms to then move to perm to be safe. Once you've gone contract to perm the default assumption is they are the same and it's much more difficult to prove than it would if you were in an outside gig and leave. You don't have the focus or both sides of the coin in play if you get me.

    Unless there is a tranferance of liability in your contract but that's a whole different discussion.
    It is possible but not very common and probably less so now than a few years ago. I had an interim role as Head of IT where I had a lot of client restrictions placed on me e.g. not allowed to approve invoices, conduct appraisals or do other typical BAU stuff. We did talk about me taking on the role permanently where all those restrictions would have been removed.

    Leave a comment:


  • oliverson
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post

    If you've been at a client for more than a couple of years, then the question is: what is the difference between what you deliver and what a permie delivers? (Not talking about what is written in a contract, but what is actually happening)
    If you are just rolled from one project to the next (again, not talking about you asking for a new contract, but what is actually happening on the ground), what's the difference?

    Here's a for example from my world: I would get a contract to implement a particular part of a system. There's only half a dozen of us in Europe who know how to implement that piece properly. My contract is to implement the system and then, once it's working, the business use it and are able to make simple changes to it. It's up to them to get it supported, but the documentation I hand over is enough for someone with a bit of skill to do that. A client may request to keep me on to implement the same thing on a different global site, but my role is still very specific: to implement something that the client doesn't have the in-house skills to do, and once implemented they would have no reason to keep me on, or to employ someone full-time to provide that role.
    I bring a very specific set of skills that are used for a very specific reason, and then I'm gone.
    That's right and that's me. There is nobody at the client who has the skills I have and have been commissioned to complete a specific project. That skills shortage is likely to still be the case when the project is done.

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by simes View Post
    ...Because perhaps the working conditions change; you are demanded to be in the office and to attend Away Days (Control), there is new contract between both parties creating a (MoO), and you can't offer a (RoSubstitution)

    I do not understand why if the above changes from an Outside gig to Perm, we should necessarily get all jumped up about how the Outside gig might be perceived.
    If you've been at a client for more than a couple of years, then the question is: what is the difference between what you deliver and what a permie delivers? (Not talking about what is written in a contract, but what is actually happening)
    If you are just rolled from one project to the next (again, not talking about you asking for a new contract, but what is actually happening on the ground), what's the difference?

    Here's a for example from my world: I would get a contract to implement a particular part of a system. There's only half a dozen of us in Europe who know how to implement that piece properly. My contract is to implement the system and then, once it's working, the business use it and are able to make simple changes to it. It's up to them to get it supported, but the documentation I hand over is enough for someone with a bit of skill to do that. A client may request to keep me on to implement the same thing on a different global site, but my role is still very specific: to implement something that the client doesn't have the in-house skills to do, and once implemented they would have no reason to keep me on, or to employ someone full-time to provide that role.
    I bring a very specific set of skills that are used for a very specific reason, and then I'm gone.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by simes View Post
    ...Because perhaps the working conditions change; you are demanded to be in the office and to attend Away Days (Control), there is new contract between both parties creating a (MoO), and you can't offer a (RoSubstitution)

    I do not understand why if the above changes from an Outside gig to Perm, we should necessarily get all jumped up about how the Outside gig might be perceived.
    It depends on the clients attitude to the contractor. Away days isn't really control, there is a lot more to it, particularly around the way you work day to day and that's unlikely to change. MoO and RoS need demonstrating to really be a pillar. It's possible a client will keep giving a contractor work created MoO and RoS is generally just a sham anyway.

    So yes.... if there is a seismic shift from one way of working to another then yes outside to perm is safe. But in reality in a vast number of gigs (in the old days) it will be nothing but paperwork and the contractor/now perm just carries on. You'd have a very clear and different way of working, completely different to the perms to then move to perm to be safe. Once you've gone contract to perm the default assumption is they are the same and it's much more difficult to prove than it would if you were in an outside gig and leave. You don't have the focus or both sides of the coin in play if you get me.
    And if the onus is on the client to decide In or Outside status, we should be even less jumped up, imho.
    Unless there is a tranferance of liability in your contract but that's a whole different discussion.

    Leave a comment:

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