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Previously on "State of the Market"

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  • SussexSeagull
    replied


    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post
    The point I am trying to make, badly it seems, that office based work at least gives UK employment a chance to work.

    If the company can offer the job remotely then why would they then choose an expensive UK person when the same job could be done from somewhere where living expenses are lower and can therefore perhaps get a better candidate, cheaper.
    ​​​​​​
    Why would I get a British builder when I can get a Indian/Romainin to build me a driveway?

    I am not trying to start an argument but trying to answer my own question as to why the market is so ******* tulip.
    I think I understand what you are saying but I suspect the problem is outsourcing and the amount of Visas issued in the last few years for IT specialists who now have indefinite leave to remain.

    That said, EU citizens can't work here so easily now (and vice versa).

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by Bluenose View Post

    I hear you and I do read your posts.

    I left London in 2015 after 15 years working in the City and I have been doing work all over Europe but I do also work in the UK just not in London.

    Thats 10 years (pandemic aside) of no work done in London and the people I am interacting with are rarely inside London as well. Prior to that almost 100% of all my work was inside City+Docklands and all the people were too.

    What that tells me is that there might be IT work inside London for London based workers but if there is such work, its been delivered through a shinking pool of London IT based jobs being chased by a growing number of London based IT people.
    I have been in IT since 1998 and contracting since 2008 and I do think the industry is a lot less Londoncentric then it was. I live on the Sussex coast and historically the market in the South East has been hugely influenced by what goes on in the Square Mile, even if, like me, you have never worked there. I am not sure that is the case so much anymore. My last contract was a London based but it was a local authority who had no choice on location.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied
    The point I am trying to make, badly it seems, that office based work at least gives UK employment a chance to work.

    If the company can offer the job remotely then why would they then choose an expensive UK person when the same job could be done from somewhere where living expenses are lower and can therefore perhaps get a better candidate, cheaper.
    ​​​​​​
    Why would I get a British builder when I can get a Indian/Romainin to build me a driveway?

    I am not trying to start an argument but trying to answer my own question as to why the market is so ******* tulip.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluenose
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post

    I am not moving forwards and it's really frustrating.
    I hear you and I do read your posts.

    I left London in 2015 after 15 years working in the City and I have been doing work all over Europe but I do also work in the UK just not in London.

    Thats 10 years (pandemic aside) of no work done in London and the people I am interacting with are rarely inside London as well. Prior to that almost 100% of all my work was inside City+Docklands and all the people were too.

    What that tells me is that there might be IT work inside London for London based workers but if there is such work, its been delivered through a shinking pool of London IT based jobs being chased by a growing number of London based IT people.




    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    As for office v hybrid v remote, it is a complicated argument and depends on the contract/job. Before lockdown I commuted to London five days a week and got up at 0620 and returned home at about 1900 if everything went ok, which it quite often didn't (on the up side the Delay Repay payments funded me going up north to watch football matches). I got renewed, which presumably means I was doing a good job, but the tiredness did affect my productivity. Once the first lockdown came round we were sent home to work, which wasn't offered before, and frankly I was productive as ever, if not more so. Eventually got terminated when the client pulled then horns in a couple of months into Covid but that was exceptional circumstances.

    Further problem is if you are going into the office three times a week then you might as well buy a weekly train ticket so there is less financial benefit.

    The last contract I did in London involved me going to the office three times and two of them were to collect my laptop and drop it off again. The people I needed to see were hardly in the office so there was no point going up there.

    I do think the link between people not seeing us every day in an office and contract opportunities seemingly diminishing gets overlooked. Obviously it shouldn't make any difference and some clients are happy with it but it restricts us making the personal connections that can make a difference in a business relationship. Plus if you have some remote from another part of the country it isn't much of a leap to engage with consultants remote from another part of the world (less language and time zone differences).

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied


    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post



    I am a programmer from year 2000. I have a house in harrow on the hill which is worth £x.

    ​​Admittly, I don't have a pension, as all the money has gone into the 2 kids and house. But I have done reasonably ok out of working in London.

    I didn't waste any of my talent nor opportunities to improve or do well. Hence why I am having such a nightmare now as I am not moving forwards and it's really frustrating.
    We should all be keeping our skills up to date but the fact that someone with your experience can't find a role of some description, be it contract or permanent, and several others are in a similar boat suggests it is a bigger problem than anything you are doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • gables
    replied
    Originally posted by dsc View Post

    Well some might say that if you need an office to be productive then there's something wrong with you, it all depends.

    Last time I had to go in I've spent probably around 3hrs (and I'm not that far from London) on the train / tube / walking in tulip weather, crowded transport and I was absolutely fecked when I got back home and I only went in to login due to some account issues. If I had to do full 8hrs with 3hrs on top, I'd top myself fairly quickly.

    And btw I've known plenty of people who went in 5 days a week and done feck all, so location doesn't really play a key role in how much people do, it's down to the individual.
    There's plenty people earning a lot less than us doing 8hrs with 3hrs travel on top 5 days a week. Whilst I prefer wfh full time if a role required some on site presence then so be it, better to be working than not.

    Leave a comment:


  • dsc
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post
    [...]
    I have always stressed that working in a office is key to productivity.for the company and for the individual.

    Why would you want to sit at home when we could working in one of the best cities in the world?!
    ​​​​​​
    Well some might say that if you need an office to be productive then there's something wrong with you, it all depends.

    Last time I had to go in I've spent probably around 3hrs (and I'm not that far from London) on the train / tube / walking in tulip weather, crowded transport and I was absolutely fecked when I got back home and I only went in to login due to some account issues. If I had to do full 8hrs with 3hrs on top, I'd top myself fairly quickly.

    And btw I've known plenty of people who went in 5 days a week and done feck all, so location doesn't really play a key role in how much people do, it's down to the individual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snooky
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post
    All of this has been lost post COVID and there is little wonder why companies are holding back on recruitment as everyone wants to get paid large for sitting at home doing nothing.​​​​​​
    I agree people shouldn't get paid for sitting at home doing nothing. Your basic error is assuming that's actually happening. Most people I've worked with who work remotely work just as hard as they would or did in the office.

    Why would you want to sit at home when we could working in one of the best cities in the world?!
    I spent over 30 years commuting into the City, sitting in an office at a desk when - at least for the last 15 of those - most or all of my users were in different countries so it made no difference whether I was sat in at home or in central London.

    I've never really worked harder than since I started working almost entirely remotely, partly I guess as a subconscious effort to rebuff any impression of the kind you're trying to portray about remote work=slacking. But it allows me huge flexibility for my own personal life and for my work; most of my colleagues are in North & South American timezones so I can attend 6pm meetings or later because I don't then have to spend 90 minutes schlepping home afterwards.

    Like you, I've always loved the vibrancy and architecture of the City, and I like seeing colleagues in person now and then. But I definitely don't miss wasting many thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours a year pointlessly travelling on trains and tubes so I can sit at a desk doing exactly what I can do from home. I only wish I'd been able to do this when my kids were young.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied


    Originally posted by Bluenose View Post

    because they moved the jobs out of London and they want 52% of your earnings.

    things change, the jobs have changed and so has what you take home plus what it costs.

    2004 you could work in the city and afford a small flat on the river side plus two big holidays a year and everything in between .

    Companies pay you less, you get taxed more and you can't really afford to live there anymore unless you are a lawyer being worked to an early death.

    the best days have gone for now, remote working is a good way to protect your family against poverty whilst providing companies with skills and experience they can't obtain or afford from the usual suspects.
    ​​​​ ​​​
    I am a programmer from year 2000. I have a house in harrow on the hill which is worth £x.

    ​​Admittly, I don't have a pension, as all the money has gone into the 2 kids and house. But I have done reasonably ok out of working in London.

    I didn't waste any of my talent nor opportunities to improve or do well. Hence why I am having such a nightmare now as I am not moving forwards and it's really frustrating.
    Last edited by SchumiStars; Today, 09:31.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluenose
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post

    Why would you want to sit at home when we could working in one of the best cities in the world?!
    ​​​​​​
    because they moved the jobs out of London and they want 52% of your earnings.

    things change, the jobs have changed and so has what you take home plus what it costs.

    2004 you could work in the city and afford a small flat on the river side plus two big holidays a year and everything in between .

    Companies pay you less, you get taxed more and you can't really afford to live there anymore unless you are a lawyer being worked to an early death.

    the best days have gone for now, remote working is a good way to protect your family against poverty whilst providing companies with skills and experience they can't obtain or afford from the usual suspects.
    ​​​​ ​​​
    Last edited by Bluenose; Today, 07:30.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by GJABS View Post

    It depends on the individual.
    I'm autistic, and find trying to do coding in an open-plan office is nigh-on impossible because I can't think when other people are talking.
    In my last contract I spent half my time desk-hopping when I was in the office to try to get away from people talking.
    Yup. I like a balance. Go to the office for meetings and figuring out what needs to be done and not going insane being on your own all the time. WFH to have some peace and quiet to get things done.

    Leave a comment:


  • GJABS
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post
    I have always stressed that working in a office is key to productivity.for the company and for the individual.

    Why would you want to sit at home when we could working in one of the best cities in the world?!
    ​​​​​​
    It depends on the individual.
    I'm autistic, and find trying to do coding in an open-plan office is nigh-on impossible because I can't think when other people are talking.
    In my last contract I spent half my time desk-hopping when I was in the office to try to get away from people talking.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied
    I remember interviewing during 2000. And I was literally walking around central London in a suit and brief case, getting offers from everywhere I went.

    It was such an introduction to London that I never left 25yrs later.

    The buzz you get walking through Waterloo, with everyone else, it makes you feel like something else.

    And that is a key part, the enthusiasm, the motivation to want to work for your company and to help them and yourselves.

    All of this has been lost post COVID and there is little wonder why companies are holding back on recruitment as everyone wants to get paid large for sitting at home doing nothing.

    I have always stressed that working in a office is key to productivity.for the company and for the individual.

    Why would you want to sit at home when we could working in one of the best cities in the world?!
    ​​​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • gables
    replied
    Originally posted by SussexSeagull View Post

    I worked in London in my mid 20s and had a ball. Funnily enough as I got older I coped with the commute a lot better (quite possibly linked with reduction in alcohol intake).
    Yep back in the day (89-97) when I worked and lived in London it was fantastic going into the office. Worked and drank (lunchtime included, not every lunchtime I might add) with a tight team, we attended each other's weddings, actually enjoyed the commute on the tube. This was my first employment after graduating and tbh learnt a lot by being in the office, I doubt it's the best start for the youngsters wfh all the time. That's if they do, I know my lad and fiance go into the office a couple of times a week.

    Leave a comment:

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