Reply to: Termination Action as I complained about non-payment: *Need help quick*

[SueEllen]

I'm getting this tulip now too. "Fine to opt in but need a different contract that may put you within IR35."

I have pointed out that by not opting out I am in. Their response has been to lock me out of their timesheet system.

I've only been on site 2 weeks.

Check your PMs as my reply was too long to put on the board.

[GB9]

Thanks for the approaches suggested.

There were different Opt-in and Opt-out agency contracts. The Opt-in had the "not paying you unless we get a timesheet" statement removed and also the "can't work back with the client for this time period" restriction convent removed. I plumbed for the Opt-in contract.

I'm getting this tulip now too. "Fine to opt in but need a different contract that may put you within IR35."

I have pointed out that by not opting out I am in. Their response has been to lock me out of their timesheet system.

I've only been on site 2 weeks.

[pauly]

The t&cs shouldn't be any different if the agency contract was written properly. They just cannot enforce a few clauses and the agency contract should cover that scenario by mentioning that in those clauses. Then again I'm speaking from dealing with agencies who recognise not everyone opts out.

Thanks for the approaches suggested.

There were different Opt-in and Opt-out agency contracts. The Opt-in had the "not paying you unless we get a timesheet" statement removed and also the "can't work back with the client for this time period" restriction convent removed. I plumbed for the Opt-in contract.

[quackhandle]

4 months of non-payment?

A sockie, shirely?

qh

[SueEllen]

Yes, that is correct. You would, of course, expect then to be offered a different contract to cover the revised Ts&Cs

The t&cs shouldn't be any different if the agency contract was written properly. They just cannot enforce a few clauses and the agency contract should cover that scenario by mentioning that in those clauses. Then again I'm speaking from dealing with agencies who recognise not everyone opts out.

[malvolio]

Mal, has anyone actually been fined for this, and if so is it only the most persistent and egregious offenders?

Don't know specifically, but the BIS Inspectorate have the power to impose the fines. I do know they have contacted clients on the back of a complaint

Also, am I right in thinking that the contractor can opt out, get the gig and then opt in, or did I imagine that?

Yes, that is correct. You would, of course, expect then to be offered a different contract to cover the revised Ts&Cs

[Contreras]

This is a very large clientco and the agency has hundreds (if not many more) onsite. The issue isn't contractor timesheets - the issue is the internal permie project politics and how no internal allocations to a project then impacts the contractor from getting paid (the permies may not even realise this). The permies have to have get internal project allocations as well - however they have the clout to get them and they will get paid irrespective.

If you had threatened the agency at week 2 that you'd walk without a signed timesheet to bill against then the agency would have escalated it to the point where either the client formally assigned you to a project, or realised they didn't need you. By staying silent with the agency all you have achieved is a few months (which you can expect to be paid for eventually) and some burned bridges at the client.

Live and learn. You're not opted out so it matters not whether the client is stalling payment to the agency. You just need to be able to prove you were on site - which shouldn't be difficult if you were there and as busy as you say you were.

[Old Greg]

It is right that the opt out has to be done before the client knows who you are to be effective. But do you (and they) also understand that making it conditional for submission is illegal and subject to a £50k fine per occurrence?

Mal, has anyone actually been fined for this, and if so is it only the most persistent and egregious offenders?

Also, am I right in thinking that the contractor can opt out, get the gig and then opt in, or did I imagine that?

[pauly]

It is right that the opt out has to be done before the client knows who you are to be effective. But do you (and they) also understand that making it conditional for submission is illegal and subject to a £50k fine per occurrence?

I know its plain wrong - but how am I going to stop it - complain? Don't think I will be put forward if I do. Its wrapped up in a statement from the agency juniors "...well...are you going to submit as an opted-out candidate?... if you opt-out you can claim overtime - if you don't you can't, you do want overtime don't you?".

[malvolio]

Exactly - I am an Opted-in candidate and internal reconciliation is not my issue. The agency however want to make it the contractor's problems as they do not get paid unless there is an internal record for them to get paid.

The agency tries to only allow Opt-ed out candidates into this client, by asking the contractor beforehand if they are willing to Opt-out and only then forward the CV to Clientco. I understand why they do this now.

It is right that the opt out has to be done before the client knows who you are to be effective. But do you (and they) also understand that making it conditional for submission is illegal and subject to a £50k fine per occurrence?

[pauly]

No agency would be happy to have a contractor on site and not be paid for them.

In fact some agencies clearly put in their contracts to stop contractors delaying submitting timesheets if you don't put in an invoice within 2 months you aren't going to get the money simply because they can't get the money if you don't have timesheets.

This is a very large clientco and the agency has hundreds (if not many more) onsite. The issue isn't contractor timesheets - the issue is the internal permie project politics and how no internal allocations to a project then impacts the contractor from getting paid (the permies may not even realise this). The permies have to have get internal project allocations as well - however they have the clout to get them and they will get paid irrespective.

[pauly]

Is it me or is the OP getting a bit too involved with the clients system and organisation? End of the day - invoice goes to agency and they pay it. If they dont then get them to sort it.

Rather than faff about with timesheet systems, projects etc - not my problem.

Exactly - I am an Opted-in candidate and internal reconciliation is not my issue. The agency however want to make it the contractor's problems as they do not get paid unless there is an internal record for them to get paid.

The agency tries to only allow Opt-ed out candidates into this client, by asking the contractor beforehand if they are willing to Opt-out and only then forward the CV to Clientco. I understand why they do this now.

[northernladuk]

Is it me or is the OP getting a bit too involved with the clients system and organisation? End of the day - invoice goes to agency and they pay it. If they dont then get them to sort it.

Rather than faff about with timesheet systems, projects etc - not my problem.

Indeed which kinda makes you wonder if his termination for internal escalation has a different side to it we are not hearing. Clients do not like contractors making waves.

[CheeseSlice]

Is it me or is the OP getting a bit too involved with the clients system and organisation? End of the day - invoice goes to agency and they pay it. If they dont then get them to sort it.

Rather than faff about with timesheet systems, projects etc - not my problem.

Exactly. Like a lot of us I've worked in places where they want contractors to use internal timekeeping software. I'll always avoid it as long as I can (not doing the CBT course usually does the trick). Quite often logins havent been set up, there is some issue, and one place even got one of the PMOs to fill mine in for me each week because I wasnt set up.

In all cases my timesheet still got signed and my invoices paid.

[psychocandy]

Is it me or is the OP getting a bit too involved with the clients system and organisation? End of the day - invoice goes to agency and they pay it. If they dont then get them to sort it.

Rather than faff about with timesheet systems, projects etc - not my problem.