Reply to: Working abroad expense

[NotAllThere]

But I get it, it's quite unfortunate I feel.

Good. Thread closed.

[northernladuk]

Ok I'm not trolling. But just to be clear on what you said. Would the taxman disagree only on expensing part of the accomodation only or also disagree of having a separate work desk while abroad?

F*** me sideways.. How many more times??????

You've had the answer thick end of 10 times now. Asking the same question looking for the answer you want to hear isn't going to change a damn thing. You are working away from your permanent office because you want to therefore no expenses. Jesus wept.

31 post to reiterate the answer you had in the 2nd and 3d posts.

[cwah]

Yes you can. yes it would be an excellent separation.
Yes more expensive.
And the taxman would disagree.

So you know the facts, and the answer. Stop trolling.

Ok I'm not trolling. But just to be clear on what you said. Would the taxman disagree only on expensing part of the accomodation only or also disagree of having a separate work desk while abroad?

I know there was example above that if my home was too noisy and I wanted to work in a more quiet environment even in the UK it should be my own responsability. However a work space office is clearly wholly and exclusively for the purpose of the trade, even though it's due to my lifestyle choice

[cwah]

you have jumped from “working from home” to “happen to be abroad”, almost like Withnail and I.
Someone doesn’t accidentally happen to wake up one morning and find themselves abroad, choosing to book accommodation somewhere that has bad mobile phone signal, even though 5 minutes down the road is a business park with offices to rent.

if you choose to move abroad, then your company doesn’t pay for your personal choice to do that. You’d have to sort out taxes and how your company would be run, and what would happen if your client, who signed a contract and agreed a rate based on you being in the UK discovers that the UK LTD they had engaged had offshored the work to a cheaper location or if they wanted you to come onsite for meetings?

I actually tell them I'm abroad so they are fully aware. But I'm still UK resident. I have an UK address. And I'm just temporarily abroad.

If they want me onsite they need to tell me and I can come. It's not like i m in the other side of the world

[Lance]

And to add to the previous point, I could also book separately a working space for work for a neat separation. But it would end up way more expensive to have to book for accomodation AND working space.

Would make much more sense to have one that does both. But then the taxman may disagree with this

Yes you can. yes it would be an excellent separation.
Yes more expensive.
And the taxman would disagree.

So you know the facts, and the answer. Stop trolling.

[WTFH]

If I decide to work from home - and hence require a desk/chair etc - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

If I decide that the distractions of working from home are too great, and I decide to rent a small office - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

In both cases, the company does not require me to work from home or an office, unless that's in my contract of employment with my ltd.

If I happen to be abroad, and the company requires me to work - then why can't I book a room with a desk and fast wifi? After al, it's not my personal choice to work - but a demand from the company?

I'm just trying to test the boundaries as it is a bit confusing...

Real example, I'm working from my home office. Some of the servers are noisy...so I bought a pair of noise cancelling headphones. Is that an allowable expense?

--Jatinder

you have jumped from “working from home” to “happen to be abroad”, almost like Withnail and I.
Someone doesn’t accidentally happen to wake up one morning and find themselves abroad, choosing to book accommodation somewhere that has bad mobile phone signal, even though 5 minutes down the road is a business park with offices to rent.

if you choose to move abroad, then your company doesn’t pay for your personal choice to do that. You’d have to sort out taxes and how your company would be run, and what would happen if your client, who signed a contract and agreed a rate based on you being in the UK discovers that the UK LTD they had engaged had offshored the work to a cheaper location or if they wanted you to come onsite for meetings?

[cwah]

I had a look and most questions relate to contractors working abroad for business reason. But in my case it's different I couldn't find something that match

[northernladuk]

And if you don't know, do a search. SOmeone will have asked about it. We've had all sorts of weird and wonderful
questions.

<keyword> site:forums.contractoruk.com

[northernladuk]

I'd assume your noise cancelling headphones are allowable expense right? If not, I can't even see what can be allowable expense for work then.

And do you expense your wifi and phone when working from home? Is it not allowable expense? I thought it was

Wifi isn't as it's deemed that the personal use will outstrip the business use, which is a fair assumption in 99.99% of the case. If you get a second line installed purely for the business then yes you can expense that. Your mainly personal one then no.

Phones have exceptions so you are fine with that.

First step, is it wholly and exclusively? If it's questionable then apply some common sense and if that fails either ask your accountant or don't claim it.

[northernladuk]

If I decide to work from home - and hence require a desk/chair etc - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

Well you have to work somewhere so home is your chosen permanent place of work. You can claim the £6 and you can buy equipment for your office.

If I decide that the distractions of working from home are too great, and I decide to rent a small office - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

Then that office becomes your permanent place of work and you could claim the rent but can't claim your home desk, chair and £6. Your business needs to have a permanent place of business. You can chose where that is but you can't chop and change as you fancy.

In both cases, the company does not require me to work from home or an office, unless that's in my contract of employment with my ltd.

Remember the office is generally a client site and is a temporary place of work and being their is a business journey hence you claiming the milage. Your business still needs a permanent base.

If I happen to be abroad, and the company requires me to work - then why can't I book a room with a desk and fast wifi? After al, it's not my personal choice to work - but a demand from the company?

Depends if it's your permanent place of work. If it's a temp place just because you fancy it, as per the OP, then no, you can't claim it. It's your personal choice to work away from the business's permanent place of work.

I'm just trying to test the boundaries as it is a bit confusing...

Real example, I'm working from my home office. Some of the servers are noisy...so I bought a pair of noise cancelling headphones. Is that an allowable expense?

--Jatinder

No one is gonna complain about headphones. You need headphones, they aren't that expensive and the tax man really isn't going to quibble over something that is needed by the business.

Think about your location as permanent or temporary and what is a reasonable purchase for the companys needs. If you want to get a posher set then fair enough as long as the business needs it. That should give you your answer for most black and white examples.

[cwah]

I believe HMRC guidance on that is to be expensable, the ‘wholly and exclusively’ test can only be satisfied if the sole reason for incurring the expenditure is for the purposes of the trade.

You work from home and want desk/chairs, yes it's your choice. But is it wholly and exclusively for the purpose of the trade?

I'd say yes.

[cwah]

If I decide to work from home - and hence require a desk/chair etc - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

If I decide that the distractions of working from home are too great, and I decide to rent a small office - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

In both cases, the company does not require me to work from home or an office, unless that's in my contract of employment with my ltd.

If I happen to be abroad, and the company requires me to work - then why can't I book a room with a desk and fast wifi? After al, it's not my personal choice to work - but a demand from the company?

I'm just trying to test the boundaries as it is a bit confusing...

Real example, I'm working from my home office. Some of the servers are noisy...so I bought a pair of noise cancelling headphones. Is that an allowable expense?

--Jatinder

I'd assume your noise cancelling headphones are allowable expense right? If not, I can't even see what can be allowable expense for work then.

And do you expense your wifi and phone when working from home? Is it not allowable expense? I thought it was

[jatinder]

If I decide to work from home - and hence require a desk/chair etc - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

If I decide that the distractions of working from home are too great, and I decide to rent a small office - then is the company paying for expenses related to my personal choice?

In both cases, the company does not require me to work from home or an office, unless that's in my contract of employment with my ltd.

If I happen to be abroad, and the company requires me to work - then why can't I book a room with a desk and fast wifi? After al, it's not my personal choice to work - but a demand from the company?

I'm just trying to test the boundaries as it is a bit confusing...

Real example, I'm working from my home office. Some of the servers are noisy...so I bought a pair of noise cancelling headphones. Is that an allowable expense?

--Jatinder

[northernladuk]

It's not really a break. I'm planning to travel long term although I'd come back regularly in the UK.

It's just getting a good place to work while travelling is difficult and expensive. I don't think I can work from home in a cheap room abroad. Wifi may not work properly and be slow. And I'd have to work outside. Best place would be some shared desk space. They cost like £15/day. It's still way cheaper than having a separate flat with fast wifi

I don't care. It's not wholly and exclusively so you can't claim it. You wouldn't have to pay it if you weren't fulfilling your hears desires. I've run out of ways to explain it.

Wifi works fine all over the world now. I'd not assume wifi would be bad nowadays. Be prepared, but the assumption it will be poor is stuff of olden days. If your wifi is poor then you are forcing the business to incur costs because you've not booked somewhere suitable so again, not wholly and exclusively.

Can you someone break wholly and exclusively down in to smaller words for the poster please?

[cwah]

No it wouldn't.

Why would you incur expenses just to be able to claim expenses? That's ridiculous. Just get on with it and enjoy your break and don't let that tax issues dictate your holiday.

It's not really a break. I'm planning to travel long term although I'd come back regularly in the UK.

It's just getting a good place to work while travelling is difficult and expensive. I don't think I can work from home in a cheap room abroad. Wifi may not work properly and be slow. And I'd have to work outside. Best place would be some shared desk space. They cost like £15/day. It's still way cheaper than having a separate flat with fast wifi