Reply to: Change To OOH Rate mid Contract?

[eek]

The only contract that really counts is between you and the umbrella.

It's a whole different way of contracting, folks.

As I've pointed out before - the actual question isn't the contract - it will be who does the umbrella think is their most important customer, is it

1) the contractor or
2) the agency they give £50,000 a year to and need to keep 100% happy to ensure they remain on that agency's PSL...

The entire reason I've spent so long working on what I'm doing is because the only way to fix this industry is to remove every reason that an agency can use to stop you working through your preferred umbrella.

Because once that's done umbrellas will only have a single master (their contractors) and some will be able to stand up to the agencies.

For other reasons see the CUK news article earlier today on umbrella chasing agency payments by Safe Collections (they don't for reasons explained in the first paragraph).

[Fred Bloggs]

The only contract that really counts is between you and the umbrella.

It's a whole different way of contracting, folks.

Very happy that I don't

[cojak]

Sadly not - it's perfectly possible (and legal) that the umbrella has accepted the amended contract on the OP's behalf.

Working through an umbrella is a very different process, you have a contract with the umbrella, the umbrella signs / has the contract with the agency. Everything beyond that is level of nicety - which is a problem when (99% of the time) the umbrella's real customer is the agency not their contractors / employees.

The only contract that really counts is between you and the umbrella.

It's a whole different way of contracting, folks.

[northernladuk]

Highly likely. Most of us will have been innocent but have still suffered in the past from one or two greedy, can't help themselves taking the pi55 individuals on a project.

I remember back in the day working when working for a perm we had full blown flexi time. Clock in and out with a card and it accrued ever 30 mins over 8 hours on a clock. It was fantastic with most taking the odd days off and some of us working a 9 day fortnight, except the workshop supervisor that did nothing but work due to a crap home life. One of those guys that had been there forever and was in the workshop dawn til dusk 7 days a week. He finally accrued over 1000 hours at which point the time machine wouldn't log them so the issue was raised and the answer was to scrap it for everyone and a long tribunal to get his hours paid out. Tw*t.

[Fred Bloggs]

This is what occurred to me as well. In all the situations where OOH/Overtime/Flexitime/WhatHaveYou has changed it's generally been due to one or two people absolutely smashing it so it becomes an issue. Could be the project allocating too much of it and not managing it properly or just the odd individual taking advantage but either way it's exceed expectations and has become an issue. A contractor doing it at a rate that is higher than the perms doing the same tends to exacerbate the issue you as well.

Highly likely. Most of us will have been innocent but have still suffered in the past from one or two greedy, can't help themselves taking the pi55 individuals on a project.

[northernladuk]

- I suspect the real issue is that you are doing a lot more OOH work than other people are.

This is what occurred to me as well. In all the situations where OOH/Overtime/Flexitime/WhatHaveYou has changed it's generally been due to one or two people absolutely smashing it so it becomes an issue. Could be the project allocating too much of it and not managing it properly or just the odd individual taking advantage but either way it's exceed expectations and has become an issue. A contractor doing it at a rate that is higher than the perms doing the same tends to exacerbate the issue you as well.

[eek]

My main concern is regarding them trying to claim back what's already been paid, and the validity of the original contract.
If it can be ammended at whim - why bother with a contract all all?

Well it's not been amended at whim but you've discovered one of the umbrella industry's dirty secrets, the most important customer for most umbrella's isn't the worker (you're a product to abuse as demonstrated above), it's the agency that has put them on their PSL...

As for your actual question we / I don't know if they will claim it back, as I don't see how they can (as you would be able to go to an employment tribunal over it) but that may not stop them reducing payments until the money has been "recovered".

Equally it may just be all OOH time from now on - I suspect the real issue is that you are doing a lot more OOH work than other people are.

[j1nx3d]

Thanks all for the replies
I've not been asked to sign a new contract
It literally states new OT rate in the email, and says please find attached a copy of your contract

The contract has been ammended to show the lower OOH rate
As previously stated :
My original contract not only states that it is a X2 rate - but it actually explicitly states in £ the actual rate that will be paid for OOH work. Why would I then need to check with the Umbrella then the agency what rate I should claim on the timesheet system, if it's already stated in an agreed upon contract?

I checked with other contractors whether their rate for OOH work was x1 5 or X2 AFTER receiving the email yesterday.
Obviously - were it the case that every other contractor had been assigned a rate of x1.5 for OOH work, then I would accept that mine had been done in error, and I shouldn't have been allocated a X2 rate.
Noone else has received a mail thus far saying that their OOH rate will be decreased.

My main concern is regarding them trying to claim back what's already been paid, and the validity of the original contract.
If it can be ammended at whim - why bother with a contract all all?

[Paralytic]

j1nx3d, were you actually asked to sign a new contract, or is it just a notification of new terms?

[eek]

All sounds fine to me except this bit



I'd not be signing a new contract with a backdated start date that overlaps the x2 OOH rate. Get that changed to the future date when the x1.5 OOH kicks in.

As said above, you then have a choice to sign or look for a job elsewhere.

Again - no he doesn't - the umbrella has signed the contract.

The OP's options are to continue working under the new terms or walk away.

I know most people here don't understand the internals of what an umbrella actually does and how an umbrella works but I've already corrected the point that an umbrella worker has little say in whether a contract is signed or not (they should do but reality is different).

[eek]

Good point, well made.

I feel there are parts of the story missing - such as why the contract had 2 options on rates, and what discussion the OP had with the umbrella about which rate to use. It appears the OP only discussed it with fellow contractors and the end client, not with the umbrella.

Many years ago in my permie days, I remember time and a half was for evenings during the week or day time at the weekends.
Double time was reserved for working bank holidays, or working more than 8 hours per day at the weekend, but that was fully explained and agreed up front. Any confusion and the first port of call for the contractor should be the umbrella.

Um, have you read the first post?

The contracts (all 3 of them) have all had a single (albeit different) overtime rate specified within it.

It is the timesheet system that is displaying 2 rates but as we don't know whose timesheet system we are talking about here it's likely a communication issue.

And why do you think an umbrella firm will have any idea beyond what the agency contract says? The first point of call should be the agency, the second point of call is which ever manager is signing the timesheets and only then the umbrella.

[Paralytic]

All sounds fine to me except this bit

The dates on the contract that was sent to me yesterday are the same dates stated in the original contract

I'd not be signing a new contract with a backdated start date that overlaps the x2 OOH rate. Get that changed to the future date when the x1.5 OOH kicks in.

As said above, you then have a choice to sign or look for a job elsewhere.

[WTFH]

Sadly not - it's perfectly possible (and legal) that the umbrella has accepted the amended contract on the OP's behalf.

Working through an umbrella is a very different process, you have a contract with the umbrella, the umbrella signs / has the contract with the agency. Everything beyond that is level of nicety - which is a problem when (99% of the time) the umbrella's real customer is the agency not their contractors / employees.

Good point, well made.

I feel there are parts of the story missing - such as why the contract had 2 options on rates, and what discussion the OP had with the umbrella about which rate to use. It appears the OP only discussed it with fellow contractors and the end client, not with the umbrella.

Many years ago in my permie days, I remember time and a half was for evenings during the week or day time at the weekends.
Double time was reserved for working bank holidays, or working more than 8 hours per day at the weekend, but that was fully explained and agreed up front. Any confusion and the first port of call for the contractor should be the umbrella.

[eek]

No, they haven't. They have offered you an amended contract.

Sadly not - it's perfectly possible (and legal) that the umbrella has accepted the amended contract on the OP's behalf.

Working through an umbrella is a very different process, you have a contract with the umbrella, the umbrella signs / has the contract with the agency. Everything beyond that is level of nicety - which is a problem when (99% of the time) the umbrella's real customer is the agency not their contractors / employees.

[WTFH]

...

Yesterday, I received an email from the umbrella company stating that there was a new OOH rate starting this month (November), and an ammended contract was attached
...
Can anyone please advise as to where I stand from a legal point?

They've offered you an amended contract. From a legal point of view you can take it or leave it. If you voluntarily choose to reject it, that's your choice.

...
If the umbrella can make changes mid way through an agreed contract, then it's not worth the paper it's written on

No, they haven't. They have offered you an amended contract.

...
Also, if I am forced to accept the new contract...

No one is forcing you to accept the new contract, you can reject it and leave the client. Your choice.


One other thing to note: check the details of your contract for sections about discussing your contract with the end customer, or with fellow contractors on the site.