Reply to: Agency does not want invoice. I must fill out their timesheet in order to get paid.

[quackhandle]

Re the question, yes there is. It shows the OP has made absolutely zero effort to understand IR35. If he can't even fathom this how on earth is he supposed to make sure his working practices stay outside etc.

If wager he's not put much effort in to understanding the 24 month rule and other aspects to being a good contractor. He looks like a permatractor playing tick box contracting.

To be fair neither have HMRC.

qh

[northernladuk]

There you have it guys.

To all those with less than 20 years' experience and post counts in the low 30 thousands, there does exist a minimum level of question to ask before you stop being decried in public forum.

The mantra, 'no question is too stupid', does not exist to the higher echelons of some posters.

What rarefied company we exist in and put up with...!

There is indeed. It's detailed nicely in a sticky in the FAQ section..

https://forums.contractoruk.com/welc...e-newbies.html

which states..

So basically, we will help where we can but we dislike lazy posting. If you find the above steps too much of a hassle, you deserve all you get.

There is also a link to the T&C's at the top of the forum lists here

https://www.contractoruk.com/about/bulletin_board.html

which states, amongst other things....

2. Do your research.

As a new forum member or a regular with a question please do your research. Here is an excellent post from one of our moderators that shows how to search the main site for information. There is also a search function on the forum that can be used. We do not like lazy questions and these will likely result in it being suggested that you do some research.

So yes, there are some rules to set a minimum level of question, or at least avoid the ones below a general minimum.

We are also a fora of professionals selling our expert skills. I'd personally expect the people in here to be a bit tougher and more capable than your average bod in the street. A bit of researching or using your ability to solve problems to help yourself isn't a big ask and I think also sets a minimum standard of what to expect.
Mumsnet is a forum for anyone that's a mum regardless of background, education etc but you wanna see that lot kick off when someone asks a 'below the minimum threshold' question. People get it easy here.

Now stop ****ing crying and grow some.

[northernladyuk]

There you have it guys.

To all those with less than 20 years' experience and post counts in the low 30 thousands, there does exist a minimum level of question to ask before you stop being decried in public forum.

The mantra, 'no question is too stupid', does not exist to the higher echelons of some posters.

What rarefied company we exist in and put up with...!

I posted this the other day, but worth repeating.

[simes]

There you have it guys.

To all those with less than 20 years' experience and post counts in the low 30 thousands, there does exist a minimum level of question to ask before you stop being decried in public forum.

The mantra, 'no question is too stupid', does not exist to the higher echelons of some posters.

What rarefied company we exist in and put up with...!

[d000hg]

Grief - you really need to get off your high horse.

A simple question; it didn't need all your high and mighty attitude.

Yes exactly, a simple question. Too simple.

[northernladuk]

Why are we still talking about IR35? Self billing has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's a commercial agreement between your limited and the agency. Sod all to do with defining the employment relationship between a working and the client.

So, if come the time when the IR35 fight occurs in court, I will have Against me a damning H&S certificate, but I will have For me an Invoice (even if the latter wasn't actually submitted). It is all about the balance.

Wow.. I've seen plenty of people trying to find the silver bullet for IR35 but I'm sure an invoice isn't it.

[Hobosapien]

Aye, instead of worrying about the endless minutiae of what working practices could be deemed a pointer towards being inside IR35 (either rightly or wrongly, at the discretion of whatever wig is in the court on the day), it's far easier to concentrate on working practices that are proven (from documented cases and IR35 contract reviews) to make you outside IR35.

So don't lose sleep about client/site induction courses (H&S, security, handling of client's data, ...), using client facilities, or self billing. They can neither lose or win you the battle.

Lose sleep if you can't easily prove your working practices are outside IR35 by the currently accepted (by HMRC or client HR) review services and insurances. Plenty of info on this site and elsewhere saying what kinds of things to look out for when deciding to accept a contract or later work from the client and how best to deliver it.

[SueEllen]

And while the HMRC fights and loses appeals on IR35, one can assume no one Really knows what IR35 is about - including its authors.

Yes, the dreaded H&S courses. About which, I can't be bothered to fight that battle and end up in doing (most of) them, while hoping the drive to complete them dries up and goes away. Which is not to say I don't have an appreciation of IR35, it is just to say I don't want to get bent out of shape when asked to do them, or create enemies when I refuse to do them.

So, if come the time when the IR35 fight occurs in court, I will have Against me a damning H&S certificate, but I will have For me an Invoice (even if the latter wasn't actually submitted). It is all about the balance.

You have illustrated you have little understanding of H&S legislation.

Everyone is covered by H&S legislation hence those signs for wet floors in shops. If you spend a reasonable amount of time on a client site e.g. more than just pop in, they have to ensure you are aware of H&S legislation e.g. do a course to help prevent them being prosecuted if something goes wrong.

It has absolutely nothing to do with IR35. The same way being sexually, racially etc abused at a client site and taking action against it has nothing to do with IR35.

[simes]

The simple question revealed the OP doesn't understand what IR35 is about.

However they aren't the only one who has done this in the past. Other posters have complained when they have had to do Health and Safety courses when working on a client site...

And while the HMRC fights and loses appeals on IR35, one can assume no one Really knows what IR35 is about - including its authors.

Yes, the dreaded H&S courses. About which, I can't be bothered to fight that battle and end up in doing (most of) them, while hoping the drive to complete them dries up and goes away. Which is not to say I don't have an appreciation of IR35, it is just to say I don't want to get bent out of shape when asked to do them, or create enemies when I refuse to do them.

So, if come the time when the IR35 fight occurs in court, I will have Against me a damning H&S certificate, but I will have For me an Invoice (even if the latter wasn't actually submitted). It is all about the balance.

[FK1]

Speak for yourself. Most contractors I know (myself included) insist on invoicing whenever possible.

Aside from anything else it makes accounting easier since I can choose when to generate the invoice rather than having to wait for a self-billing note to arrive from the agency when payment occurs.

+ 1024

10 years of contracting I never accept self-billing and insist on invoicing. All agencies I worked through accepted that and received my invoices. I suspect they simply ignored them but that is their business while I run my own.

[SueEllen]

Grief - you really need to get off your high horse.

A simple question; it didn't need all your high and mighty attitude.

The simple question revealed the OP doesn't understand what IR35 is about.

However they aren't the only one who has done this in the past. Other posters have complained when they have had to do Health and Safety courses when working on a client site...

[northernladuk]

Grief - you really need to get off your high horse.

A simple question; it didn't need all your high and mighty attitude.

Not really. Crap contractors really get my goat and if the OP takes any notice and steps up then he's had better advice than an answer to a pretty daft question.

[simes]

You really need to get a basic grasp of IR35. That's an awful question to be asking. A one line understanding of IR35 should be enough to not have to ask that.
Really poor carry on.

Grief - you really need to get off your high horse.

A simple question; it didn't need all your high and mighty attitude.

For my part, irrespective of self billing and what the HMRC say they want this week, I just have an annual spreadsheet with all the invoices pre-prepared and then get auto filled when filling in my days worked per month - just in case someone, some time, wants to view them. Belt and Braces? Yes indeed.

[MrButton]

And we wonder why HMRC treat us like permies / temporary employees and not like a "real" business.

Irrelevant.

Hmm, if you look at the HMRC website here they say:

"This notice is about the VAT treatment of self-billing. Self-billing is a commercial arrangement between a supplier and a customer in which the customer prepares the supplier’s invoice and forwards a copy to the supplier with the payment."

Look very business like to me

On the ball and to the point.

[gables]

And we wonder why HMRC treat us like permies / temporary employees and not like a "real" business.

Hmm, if you look at the HMRC website here they say:

"This notice is about the VAT treatment of self-billing. Self-billing is a commercial arrangement between a supplier and a customer in which the customer prepares the supplier’s invoice and forwards a copy to the supplier with the payment."

Look very business like to me