Reply to: Is there a limit to how long you can spend with a single Client , does it affect IR35

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

out of curiosity does it not mean that most (IT) contractors are inside IR35?. After all most will join for a specific project or piece of work and then get into a habit of routine renewals till client decide its over

This almost implies that length of time with a client can be issue as well

No, the reason the status changed over time in Dragonfly is because it became less project-specific over time and effectively just became a rolling employment contract. Not good and an example of how staying longer and longer at a client can increase the risk of you becoming part and parcel of an organisation. The length in and of itself does not affect your status though.

[missinggreenfields]

out of curiosity does it not mean that most (IT) contractors are inside IR35?

No. If it did, then HMRC would have a much higher success rate of fighting IR35 cases.

[css_jay99]

Thanks, that's the one, not Dragonfly, obviously. The OP needs to read that, IMO.

out of curiosity does it not mean that most (IT) contractors are inside IR35?. After all most will join for a specific project or piece of work and then get into a habit of routine renewals till client decide its over

This almost implies that length of time with a client can be issue as well

[Fred Bloggs]

IR35 Case | IT contractor left with huge bill for unpaid taxes.

Thanks, that's the one, not Dragonfly, obviously. The OP needs to read that, IMO.

[Ketto]

I can't remember the case. But it is worth the OP familiarising him/her self with the case a few years ago where the contractor started out outside of IR35 and was then declared inside for the remainder of the contract by the judge.

Was it the Dragonfly case?

http://www.contractorumbrella.com/ir..._tax_bill.html

[Fred Bloggs]

I can't remember the case. But it is worth the OP familiarising him/her self with the case a few years ago where the contractor started out outside of IR35 and was then declared inside for the remainder of the contract by the judge.

Was it the Dragonfly case?

[northernladuk]

If you are new at a client because you have no knowledge of the system you will do purely development, as time goes by and more and more features go live which you developed the more you will inevitably be involved in running and maintaining the system. At the beginning you can fairly easily declare yourself outside IR35 as you are only developing a specific piece of software, after 2 years probably the PM will asking you several times a day to look at problems and put in small changes for the bits you developed.

That is why a lot of contractors slip inside IR35 as time goes by. .

This.. So looking at the OP situation. If he doesn't know what D&C is and how schedules or work must be executed then it's fair to say the answer to him is YES length of time will effect IR35 because there is no way he knows enough to avoid it.

[LondonManc]

Following on from the Alexander Review, I don't think it's unlikely depending on the kind of work that you do. I have two concurrent clients, one inside and one outside IR35 and I declare that.

Point taken, but many of us work on a typical 5 PWD gig with bits of extra stuff here and there (both of which tend to be outside unless you're a PS contractor with sidelines I suppose).

[BlasterBates]

If you are new at a client because you have no knowledge of the system you will do purely development, as time goes by and more and more features go live which you developed the more you will inevitably be involved in running and maintaining the system. At the beginning you can fairly easily declare yourself outside IR35 as you are only developing a specific piece of software, after 2 years probably the PM will asking you several times a day to look at problems and put in small changes for the bits you developed.

That is why a lot of contractors slip inside IR35 as time goes by. To be honest most contractors are probably inside from day 1 and if HMRC and judges had all worked in the IT industry they would get hammered in the way teachers and doctors do, but fortunately they haven't and the industry is opaque from their point of view, which means contractors can at least "appear" to be outside as long as they don't stay too long.

[LondonManc]

Apart from the first point i am okay, i just wonder that i get renewed as part of the next version of the system v1, then renewed to work on v2 etc...

Make sure you have well defined statements of work and that your working practices continue to be outside of IR35 - main phase and v2 might be fine, but v3 might be inside IR35 for example, because you're then considered part and parcel or you're subject to a far greater degree of direction and control (or indeed can no longer be easily substituted because of your system knowledge levels, etc.).

[malvolio]

Apart from the first point i am okay, i just wonder that i get renewed as part of the next version of the system v1, then renewed to work on v2 etc...

If you are hired and renewed with a schedule of work saying you are there to deliver product xxx versions n, n+1 and n+2 then duration is irrelevant. If you are there with a contract saying you are to support whatever product they ask you to, then duration is irrelevant.

The thing is, the first option is possibly outside IR35, the second one probably isn't.

Get your head around the fact that the basis of IR35 is that you are not an employee, disguised or otherwise. If you can demonstrate that you are supplying services as a third party organisation then IR35 doesn't apply: see the earlier plumber analogy, it's not all about subs and setting your own hours, it's about being a separate business. Sadly demonstrating that is difficult and often ambiguous, hence the advice to read as much as you can. As well as all the stuff on here, get the Guide to Freelancing download from www.ipse.co.uk - after all, they wrote the book.

Your job is to be a professional freelance contractor, not whatever it is you do at your client to earn money.

[northernladuk]

Apart from the first point i am okay, i just wonder that i get renewed as part of the next version of the system v1, then renewed to work on v2 etc...

Don't want to be rude but researching your first question would answer this one as well. This is very fundamental stuff. If you don't understand this you won't understand Direction and Control which is one of your major pointers.

Time to start reading. You need to know why, not just yes and no.

[b0redom]

This is something that i really should do , it is from a large recruiter so i stupidly have assumed it would of been passed through or others wouldnt of taken it!

You'd be surprised by how many contractors don't know and/or stick their head in the sand with regards to IR35. Last time I had a contract reviewed by QDOS through a largish agency and it failed I was told 'but we have hundreds of others and no one else has complained.'

That being said, there is no point in having your contract reviewed after the fact. What would you do if you were found to be inside IR35? It's completely unrealistic to assume that an agent will care enough to try and get your contract changed following acceptance, so you'd have to declare yourself inside.

Definitely worth doing in the future though.

[missinggreenfields]

- a contract is inside or outside of IR35, not a person (you may have one contract inside, one outside, both on the go at the same time; unlikely, but possible)

Following on from the Alexander Review, I don't think it's unlikely depending on the kind of work that you do. I have two concurrent clients, one inside and one outside IR35 and I declare that.

[nc1]

Some basic points for you as a summary of this topic:

- a contract is inside or outside of IR35, not a person (you may have one contract inside, one outside, both on the go at the same time; unlikely, but possible)
- length of stay affects IR35 only in terms of you being considered part and parcel of the organisation; if there is a 3 year project to deliver both OLTP and data warehouse systems built off it, then you go then it's fine. If you stay on for support after, lube up.
- I generally use a two-year rule (which ties in nicely with the expenses rules) to consider myself as part and parcel.
- Enjoying the same perks as employees is a big red flag; being discriminated against as a contractor is good. By that, I mean that if you have to pay for the team ten pin bowling night and permies don't, then good. Go on it and keep the evidence that you were treated differently to a perm.

Aside from that, as NLUK and others have said, there are plenty of links on the right hand side.

Apart from the first point i am okay, i just wonder that i get renewed as part of the next version of the system v1, then renewed to work on v2 etc...