Reply to: Biz trips on expenses

[SlipTheJab]

Claim it. HMRC are ******* us over left right and centre anyway may as well milk it where possible HTH

[borderreiver]

Is it a bank holiday in Germany though?

I think that as long as it's a normal business day in Germany then that shouldn't really be a problem. But as others have said, you do need to be able to justify the trip if/when HMRC check.

[Antman]

Oh over a bank holiday weekend. HMIT is gonna love that.

You've had the advice, what you do is up to you now. If you think it's wholly and exclusively then claim, if it's polished up to try and look like it then claim if you want to. Your call now, it's your head thats on the block.

Is it a bank holiday in Germany though?

+1 for claiming it, how else does business get done but by networking. Usual caveat applies of strangers on internet forum etc.

[fool]

Hi. Thanks for your reply.

Going to Berlin for a change for scenery. I'll meet some tech startups at networking in evenings (does that count as client meetings?), programming in the day, and chill a bit. Pretty similar to what I do in London.

You're right a change of scenery is a kind of holiday.

I pick up work from tech networking from time to time, so it's not purely social.

I think it depends how I describe it. If I wrote it down as:

Relocate to Berlin for a week of work.
Berlin tech startup networking.
Continue programming work during the days from hotel.

Every business trip i've been on with my clients in USA always involved beers in evening, it was still business trip. Like when I used to go to tech conferences for a week in LA.

It is £250 flights, 400 hotel. So the tax saving is £120 by being able to put down as an expense (saving corporation tax)

Cheers, richy

You can expense it but you're right, it depends how you frame it.

Your offical line should be that you're going to Berlin to attend a tech conference and drum up business. Incidentally enjoying Berlin while you're there is fine, as long as you maintain that wouldn't be going without the business motivation behind it.

As soon as you start talking about a change of scenory, you're making it personal and thus it is categorically not a business expense and thus cannot be expensed.

If you do expense, don't start talking about the side benefits or it being 90% a business trip. It makes you look like an idiot. It's 100% a business trip or it's not a business trip. Nobodys going to lose their minds because you went for beers after, but they might ask why you went over a long weekend if the conference was a one day thing.

You can probably justify that if you try hard enough, obviously if you were going for two weeks for one day, you probably couldn't.

[richy]

Oh over a bank holiday weekend. HMIT is gonna love that.

You've had the advice, what you do is up to you now. If you think it's wholly and exclusively then claim, if it's polished up to try and look like it then claim if you want to. Your call now, it's your head thats on the block.

Exactly.

I imagine your business outgoings column is pretty empty as you're cautious!

[northernladuk]

Its 90% business trip.. so I could put it down. It is over a long weekend (bank hol). Weather I want to for the sake of £135 corp tax saving I don't know if I can be bothered to write it all up with the networking evidence.

Oh over a bank holiday weekend. HMIT is gonna love that.

You've had the advice, what you do is up to you now. If you think it's wholly and exclusively then claim, if it's polished up to try and look like it then claim if you want to. Your call now, it's your head thats on the block.

[richy]

Pretty tricky to go to networking events in Berlin if you're not in Berlin!

In my view it's all perfectly claimable so long as you can justify it as entirely for business. That's not difficult to do with a little effort, so long as you don't prattle on about "change of scenery". For example a simple schedule detailing who you will be meeting, when and where, and the time and place of networking events - backup with receipts.

I really don't know why people are so coy. If you honestly think it's legitimate and can sensibly justify it, then claim it. If you claim and are investigated, the worst that will happen (unless you really work hard at making it look like fraud by falsifying receipts for example), will be that it is disallowed with a little extra tax + interest on it. It really isn't a big deal. Most of us are squeaky clean compared to retail small businesses.

Its 90% business trip.. so I could put it down. It is over a long weekend (bank hol). Weather I want to for the sake of £135 corp tax saving I don't know if I can be bothered to write it all up with the networking evidence.

There are hundreds of meetups, I could easily go to a different country ever week to try pick up new business. I don't think this should be excluded. Would you tell a jobcentre that they were no longer allowed to reimburse jobseekers travel expenses to interviews? They even pay for them to buy a suit!


I think a degree of reasonableness surrounds business expenses. Otherwise they could start saying I don't need to print out source code to look at it. I should only look at it on screen to save all that printer paper.

[richy]

But he's made it clear thats not why he is going. OP can dress it up as he wants and can apply his level if risk to it but the end of the day it HMIT comes knocking he is going to have a very hard time justifying it. They do this for a living so 'a bit of networking' just isn't going to cut it.

Are business away days excluded too? I was thinking of inviting some sales guys I know to a retreat, brainstorm how we can sell more of my software etc to the masses. Paying their flights and hotel would be well worth it, we'd make a lot more back in sales.

[richy]

There is no debate.

You aren't going wholly and exclusively for business.

Anyway why don't you ask your accountant rather than a bunch of strangers on a forum?

Is it because your accountant like us will tell you a holiday even a working one isn't a business expense?

You're right its not 101% business. I'm being honest. I want to do some work and meet clients in a different place than my home office!

Past biz trip I met a business partner, we hare worked together for last six months on a knowledge sharing agreement (ie not invoiced work), we're both in same field, and we are both progressing independently in different country markets. I've made plenty of money thanks to this trip, I'm glad I invested in it via ltd co paying.

Of course, while I was abroad, I also went out for beers in the evening.

[northernladuk]

Pretty tricky to go to networking events in Berlin if you're not in Berlin!

In my view it's all perfectly claimable so long as you can justify it as entirely for business. That's not difficult to do with a little effort, so long as you don't prattle on about "change of scenery". For example a simple schedule detailing who you will be meeting, when and where, and the time and place of networking events - backup with receipts.

I really don't know why people are so coy. If you honestly think it's legitimate and can sensibly justify it, then claim it. If you claim and are investigated, the worst that will happen (unless you really work hard at making it look like fraud by falsifying receipts for example), will be that it is disallowed with a little extra tax + interest on it. It really isn't a big deal. Most of us are squeaky clean compared to retail small businesses.

But he's made it clear thats not why he is going. OP can dress it up as he wants and can apply his level if risk to it but the end of the day it HMIT comes knocking he is going to have a very hard time justifying it. They do this for a living so 'a bit of networking' just isn't going to cut it.

[NotAllThere]

... and will be doing just what he does at home but in a nicer place.

Pretty tricky to go to networking events in Berlin if you're not in Berlin!

In my view it's all perfectly claimable so long as you can justify it as entirely for business. That's not difficult to do with a little effort, so long as you don't prattle on about "change of scenery". For example a simple schedule detailing who you will be meeting, when and where, and the time and place of networking events - backup with receipts.

I really don't know why people are so coy. If you honestly think it's legitimate and can sensibly justify it, then claim it. If you claim and are investigated, the worst that will happen (unless you really work hard at making it look like fraud by falsifying receipts for example), will be that it is disallowed with a little extra tax + interest on it. It really isn't a big deal. Most of us are squeaky clean compared to retail small businesses.

[northernladuk]

I agree with what Blaster says but the OP has laid it out pretty clearly so there is little doubt.

Change of scenery , doing same as in London and many more quotes. The fact he never mentioned any of the extra work in the first post until he was pressed speaks volumes.

He is NOT going to get extra business, he is going out of personal choice and will be doing just what he does at home but in a nicer place. Pretty black and white, not wholly and exclusively.

[SteelyDan]

If the intention of the trip is to meet potential clients or partners and you're working, I don't see why you can't expense it.

It sounds reasonable, and the worst that could happen would be that HMRC look at it and refuse. If you stay over the weekend that would probably result in them turning it down, unless you were there for two weeks, so it was a reasonable thing to do. You should also have some evidence perhaps a contract offer. If you have nothing then I suspect they'll probably refuse it. Just saying you were there to network, won't wash.

I would advise putting this through your accountant.

I'd go with this...& as far as evidence is concerned, some email comms which show intent of meetings, etc.

[BlasterBates]

If the intention of the trip is to meet potential clients or partners and you're working, I don't see why you can't expense it.

It sounds reasonable, and the worst that could happen would be that HMRC look at it and refuse. If you stay over the weekend that would probably result in them turning it down, unless you were there for two weeks, so it was a reasonable thing to do. You should also have some evidence perhaps a contract offer. If you have nothing then I suspect they'll probably refuse it. Just saying you were there to network, won't wash.

I would advise putting this through your accountant.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

I think you've answered your own question. The trip is not wholly and exclusively for business purposes. You're going for a holiday. That you happen to do some business out there does not change anything. There is clearly duality of purpose.

If you were flying there for a pre-arranged meeting with a client and happened to have a few beers in the evening that's different - those beers are entirely incidental to the purpose of your visit. The purpose of your visit would still be wholly and exclusively for business.

In your case going out for a change of scenery is not.