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When the client has no concept of IR35....

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  • hobnob
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post

    They have more than 50 Staff.
    So no.
    It's a bit more complicated than that. Take a look here:
    April 2021 changes to off-payroll working for clients - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

    The rules apply to all public sector clients and private sector companies that meet 2 or more of the following conditions:
    • you have an annual turnover of more than £10.2 million
    • you have a balance sheet total of more than £5.1 million
    • you have more than 50 employees
    I.e. if they meet the conditions for turnover and balance sheet then the number of employees is irrelevant, and you're still responsible for the determination.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post

    I know....that why i'm trying to prepare myself.
    i do listen to some of the stuff you say hence i have been building up the warchest and taking minimal money so that if things come to the worst i'm in a better place to weather the storm.
    All you've done is prep your money. You've not done anything to try understand what you do let alone keep on top of the changes coming which is now on it's third iteration over the space of four years. Your warchest is not gonna be much good if you don't have a clue what you do as a job and push yourself in to relying on it because you've put yourself out of work.

    I'm really not trying to be rude but this thread is really piss poor. What is it, third or fourth time telling you how far behind you are and in reply you've picked an 8 year old article and talked about your war chest. This is stuff you should know and if you don't you should have enough common to go find it. Every contractor has to do this bar non. Why on earth do you have such little knowledge of it and are unable to go find more?

    There is a link on the right that called IR35 let alone this whole forum area plus a million resources on it on the web. Is it any wonder HMRC things we aren't businesses and should be taxed like employees when you come along with this level of knowledge?

    Something that i struggle with is the idea that "inside or outside" is going to be all down to the wording of the contract.
    When QDOS reviewed the first contact their advice was to alter the wording of a single line in the contract.
    is that really all that is going to win the argument with HMRC ?
    Of course it's down to the wording of the contract. That's where the terms of engagement are laid out. Can you RoS, is there no MoO and D&C. If it's not there there is no evidence you are outside so fail the test. Issues around simple wording are only solidifying the position ie. RoS must be unfettered so the detail is key there. QDOS are just giving their review on the finer points and making it perfect. That one word doesn't make one outside or inside.
    All that said at the end of the day it's down to the working conditions which is why you NEED to know IR35. Whatever it says in the contract the client manager may try to treat you like a perm and ignore the clauses in which case YOU need to correct them and put it right. If you don't have a clue how are you supposed to do that you will be destroying your own status.

    Obviously i ask this knowing that many questions are still up in the air.
    and maybe no one is really going to know until the waters are tested after April.
    No you don't you need to go read up and come back questions later. Questions don't teach you things, they clarify them. And we don't know but if you have a solid understanding of IR35 and then the changes you'll be in a much better place. You'll certainly know if you are really inside and what to do about it (an appeals processes exists and has been discussed). You are waiting to be told what to do which is the fundamental problem you have. Yes we don't know exactly what will happen about illegal blankets, appeals and retro investigation but we do know what it means when your client says you are inside and why.

    Where as this change is a complete nightmare for most of us I think it's an absolute god send for you. Get yourself an inside status and just carry on not having to worry about IR35.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 23 February 2021, 15:29.

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  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post
    Something that i struggle with is the idea that "inside or outside" is going to be all down to the wording of the contract.
    It's not, and the fact that you think it is means you've not done much reading on the subject.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=site...king+practices

    Is this 2 day contract directly with the client or via an agency?

    Leave a comment:


  • malvolio
    replied
    OK, time for a bit of reality...

    If the OP really is a supplier, as they claim, then as well as the A4 Purchase Order defining what they are supplying, they will have had -or damned ought to have had - sight of the client's trading Ts&Cs, which cover things like payment, default, quality, IPR and the rest. The client, unless they are complete amateurs, will also have registered him as a supplier, which requires another set of procedures around due diligence.

    Alternatively his mate at the client has acted off his own bat and asked him to do something, with none of the above in place.

    Or he's been offered a usual contract through an agency, which is what some of the replies seem to be assuming.

    So, if the first is true then IR35 is not an issue, he is clearly in business and acting as such. If the second, then IR35 is not an issue, although getting paid and sorting out what happens when he misses the date or quality requirement(s) are the real problems. If the third then the original question may be valid, but it appears not.

    Lack of knowledge of IR35 is the real problem here. And, as has been said, not knowing about it, 20 years after its introduction, is not the mark of a professional. However not knowing does not mean it is relevant in this (apparent) case.

    And my original answer still stands, I believe. He's actually asking the wrong questions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cid
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

    Well that one does. Pull your finger out. This is your livelihood.
    I know....that why i'm trying to prepare myself.
    i do listen to some of the stuff you say hence i have been building up the warchest and taking minimal money so that if things come to the worst i'm in a better place to weather the storm.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cid
    replied
    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post

    Ok, let's get specific. What questions do you have?
    Cheers for the information.

    You know (I hope) that it is your responsibility to determine your IR35 status between now and April. What have you determined here?
    One contract has been determined outside by the agency and contract was reviewed by QDOS and passed.
    the other contract is direct with the client and the contract has not been reviewed by QDOS as of yet.


    You also know (I hope) that it will be your clients responsibility to determine your IR35 status from April.
    Yes i am aware of that as well and this has sort of prompted my question.
    If the client determines the work to be outside of IR35, then it must be them who accepts the potential liability for that determination ?
    Are people like to argue with the client that they fell the determination is incorrect and demand to be inside ?


    Something that i struggle with is the idea that "inside or outside" is going to be all down to the wording of the contract.
    When QDOS reviewed the first contact their advice was to alter the wording of a single line in the contract.
    is that really all that is going to win the argument with HMRC ?

    Obviously i ask this knowing that many questions are still up in the air.
    and maybe no one is really going to know until the waters are tested after April.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post

    Are you saying it shouldn't be there ?
    most of the articles do not have any date at all.

    How are people supposed to know which ones to pay attention too and which to ignore ?
    Well that one does. Pull your finger out. This is your livelihood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cid
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

    Well done. You found an article from 2012 talking about business entity tests that aren't even around anymore. Smashing this one outta the park
    Are you saying it shouldn't be there ?
    most of the articles do not have any date at all.

    How are people supposed to know which ones to pay attention too and which to ignore ?

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post

    Just like this one ?
    https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/ne...clear_mud.html

    like i say....clear as mud.
    Well done. You found an article from 2012 talking about business entity tests that aren't even around anymore. Smashing this one outta the park

    Leave a comment:


  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by Cid View Post

    Just like this one ?
    https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/ne...clear_mud.html

    like i say....clear as mud.
    Ok, let's get specific. What questions do you have?

    You know (I hope) that it is your responsibility to determine your IR35 status between now and April. What have you determined here?

    You also know (I hope) that it will be your clients responsibility to determine your IR35 status from April. If the client does not know this, you can either tell them, with the risk that it will frighten them off and stop the engagement, or don't tell them, in which case they'll probably find out via another route before or soon after April.

    Just because it is a 2 days a week project, it does not mean it automatically falls outside of IR35. How is the contract written, what will your working practices be? I assume you've know and checked on the 3 pillars that help in this regard?

    The fact that you have an "agreed rate" on the contract sounds like it is a daily rate, which (in the eyes of many, including HMRC) can tend towards an engagement being inside IR35, rather than a "true" supplier agreement which would be for the delivery of a specific service. The level of control you have over what you're being asked to deliver has a direct impact on the determination.

    If it says "Cid will migrate this system for £x and we expect them to spend 2 days a week on it, so it will take around y weeks. If it takes less or more time, the total payment is the same" then that sounds like a supplier contract and outside IR35. If it say "Cid will migrate this system and we'll pay him £x per day, 2 days a week until its done", then that points HMRC in the other direction.

    Have you had your "A4" contract and working practices reviewed by a specialist such as QDOS?
    Last edited by Paralytic; 23 February 2021, 13:52.

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