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When the client has no concept of IR35....

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    #11
    My expectations (for the past 2 years) is that come April if the work is found via an agent it is likely to be inside. But if you are selling services directly to a customer it will usually be outside unless HR get involved.

    And if HR get involved it isn't worth the hassle anyway.
    merely at clientco for the entertainment

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      #12
      Originally posted by Cid View Post

      I'm sure there are many people who are as confused as i am when it comes to this stuff.
      the whole situation is as clear as mud and most of what's posted seems to be conjecture or opinion.

      Much of what's posted on here is, usually from people who also haven't looked too hard. There's plenty of authoritative explanations out there. You just have to look for yourself. You could start with that long list on the right of the page...
      Blog? What blog...?

      Comment


        #13
        Originally posted by malvolio View Post

        Much of what's posted on here is, usually from people who also haven't looked too hard. There's plenty of authoritative explanations out there. You just have to look for yourself. You could start with that long list on the right of the page...
        Just like this one ?
        https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/ne...clear_mud.html

        like i say....clear as mud.

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          #14
          Originally posted by Cid View Post

          Just like this one ?
          https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/ne...clear_mud.html

          like i say....clear as mud.
          Ok, let's get specific. What questions do you have?

          You know (I hope) that it is your responsibility to determine your IR35 status between now and April. What have you determined here?

          You also know (I hope) that it will be your clients responsibility to determine your IR35 status from April. If the client does not know this, you can either tell them, with the risk that it will frighten them off and stop the engagement, or don't tell them, in which case they'll probably find out via another route before or soon after April.

          Just because it is a 2 days a week project, it does not mean it automatically falls outside of IR35. How is the contract written, what will your working practices be? I assume you've know and checked on the 3 pillars that help in this regard?

          The fact that you have an "agreed rate" on the contract sounds like it is a daily rate, which (in the eyes of many, including HMRC) can tend towards an engagement being inside IR35, rather than a "true" supplier agreement which would be for the delivery of a specific service. The level of control you have over what you're being asked to deliver has a direct impact on the determination.

          If it says "Cid will migrate this system for £x and we expect them to spend 2 days a week on it, so it will take around y weeks. If it takes less or more time, the total payment is the same" then that sounds like a supplier contract and outside IR35. If it say "Cid will migrate this system and we'll pay him £x per day, 2 days a week until its done", then that points HMRC in the other direction.

          Have you had your "A4" contract and working practices reviewed by a specialist such as QDOS?
          Last edited by Paralytic; 23 February 2021, 13:52.

          Comment


            #15
            Originally posted by Cid View Post

            Just like this one ?
            https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/ne...clear_mud.html

            like i say....clear as mud.
            Well done. You found an article from 2012 talking about business entity tests that aren't even around anymore. Smashing this one outta the park
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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              #16
              Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

              Well done. You found an article from 2012 talking about business entity tests that aren't even around anymore. Smashing this one outta the park
              Are you saying it shouldn't be there ?
              most of the articles do not have any date at all.

              How are people supposed to know which ones to pay attention too and which to ignore ?

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by Cid View Post

                Are you saying it shouldn't be there ?
                most of the articles do not have any date at all.

                How are people supposed to know which ones to pay attention too and which to ignore ?
                Well that one does. Pull your finger out. This is your livelihood.
                'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                Comment


                  #18
                  Originally posted by Paralytic View Post

                  Ok, let's get specific. What questions do you have?
                  Cheers for the information.

                  You know (I hope) that it is your responsibility to determine your IR35 status between now and April. What have you determined here?
                  One contract has been determined outside by the agency and contract was reviewed by QDOS and passed.
                  the other contract is direct with the client and the contract has not been reviewed by QDOS as of yet.


                  You also know (I hope) that it will be your clients responsibility to determine your IR35 status from April.
                  Yes i am aware of that as well and this has sort of prompted my question.
                  If the client determines the work to be outside of IR35, then it must be them who accepts the potential liability for that determination ?
                  Are people like to argue with the client that they fell the determination is incorrect and demand to be inside ?


                  Something that i struggle with is the idea that "inside or outside" is going to be all down to the wording of the contract.
                  When QDOS reviewed the first contact their advice was to alter the wording of a single line in the contract.
                  is that really all that is going to win the argument with HMRC ?

                  Obviously i ask this knowing that many questions are still up in the air.
                  and maybe no one is really going to know until the waters are tested after April.

                  Comment


                    #19
                    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

                    Well that one does. Pull your finger out. This is your livelihood.
                    I know....that why i'm trying to prepare myself.
                    i do listen to some of the stuff you say hence i have been building up the warchest and taking minimal money so that if things come to the worst i'm in a better place to weather the storm.

                    Comment


                      #20
                      OK, time for a bit of reality...

                      If the OP really is a supplier, as they claim, then as well as the A4 Purchase Order defining what they are supplying, they will have had -or damned ought to have had - sight of the client's trading Ts&Cs, which cover things like payment, default, quality, IPR and the rest. The client, unless they are complete amateurs, will also have registered him as a supplier, which requires another set of procedures around due diligence.

                      Alternatively his mate at the client has acted off his own bat and asked him to do something, with none of the above in place.

                      Or he's been offered a usual contract through an agency, which is what some of the replies seem to be assuming.

                      So, if the first is true then IR35 is not an issue, he is clearly in business and acting as such. If the second, then IR35 is not an issue, although getting paid and sorting out what happens when he misses the date or quality requirement(s) are the real problems. If the third then the original question may be valid, but it appears not.

                      Lack of knowledge of IR35 is the real problem here. And, as has been said, not knowing about it, 20 years after its introduction, is not the mark of a professional. However not knowing does not mean it is relevant in this (apparent) case.

                      And my original answer still stands, I believe. He's actually asking the wrong questions.
                      Blog? What blog...?

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