IR35 PS - So anyone had the discussion yet?

[eek]

Agency ignorance will be a major factor - I've no doubt many care not a single bit, want their cut. Anything else is just an issue that can be dealt with as and when.

Seen a data migration role which I know is for a university - nowhere does the role ad specify it's public sector as a consequence as universities are subject to FoI requests.

Maybe that omission was deliberate, maybe agent didn't have a scooby doo. Regardless of how the PS status was omitted, people will apply and people will get caught out by it.

Combine agency ignorance with contractor ignorance / apathy and it's a dangerous combination.

You are missing out on a bit there. I reckon a lot of universities (or at least the people recruiting for these roles) are equally ignorant....

[perplexed]

You are missing out on a bit there. I reckon a lot of universities (or at least the people recruiting for these roles) are equally ignorant....

Absolutely true.

I'd edit the original post but that would be unfair on your very valid point.

So the issue then becomes to what extent it's ignorance or deliberate cynicism.

[eek]

Absolutely true.

I'd edit the original post but that would be unfair on your very valid point.

So the issue then becomes to what extent it's ignorance or deliberate cynicism.

Ignorance - there is a big leap between I need someone for 6 months to do this bit of work and knowing how the tax system is changing and the impact it will have on getting someone....

[LondonManc]

Low level recruitment agents are sales drones and won't care about IR35 nor understand it. Or rather, more importantly, won't understand the full implications of the Public Sector changes that are upon us. As such they'll carry on BSing that they can sort you out an IR35-friendly contract; similarly, though, there will be permietractors who may have been on the bench for a few months and will be as blissfully ignorant of the situation. But, if they're not acting like a business, do they deserve to be treated as one?

[perplexed]

Low level recruitment agents are sales drones and won't care about IR35 nor understand it. Or rather, more importantly, won't understand the full implications of the Public Sector changes that are upon us. As such they'll carry on BSing that they can sort you out an IR35-friendly contract; similarly, though, there will be permietractors who may have been on the bench for a few months and will be as blissfully ignorant of the situation. But, if they're not acting like a business, do they deserve to be treated as one?

On the latter point, those not acting like a business will obviously get caught. It's also a chicken and egg situation though given numerous end clients have been more than happy to use permietractors as bums on seats. No incentive for those end clients to change their practices, which means permietractors continue in the same manner year on year.

"What's that you said, contractor? We should do this to ensure it's a true b2b relationship? Go away, we'll get someone who acts the way we want them to...".

Reality is that whilst most contractors are basically permie tractors, the system encourages them to do that. Act that way, get contracts based upon what client wants.

[munkee]

Seems a few of those walking out is producing new opportunities after my recent discussion with a recruiter in the north.

With this particular organisation all contractors must be payrolled through an umbrella company, no Ltd company contractors are allowed and this is why this opportunity has come up.

I t does make things challenging but we have to work with what we can!!!!

[perplexed]

Wonder what will happen with locums - doesn't seem to be based upon NHS permies I know that there's as much attention to them as there is to IT staff.

[northernladuk]

Wonder what will happen with locums - doesn't seem to be based upon NHS permies I know that there's as much attention to them as there is to IT staff.

Many Locums should already be inside, same as social workers I believe. It's on a case by case bases but I believe it's very difficult for a locum with an NHS hospital and social works to be outside.

Kate Cottrell said as much here..

Locum Hospital Doctor and IR35 | AccountingWEB

If you are working in an NHS Hospital below the grade of Consultant you are considered to be in a training grade, as the Consultant has the right to control the manner in which you carry out the services and the right to intervene at any time. Consequently IR35 applies to this engagement. For interest a Consultant doing the same at an NHS hospital through a limited company is also caught by the rules as he/she is acting as an Office Holder so effectively IR35 also applies.

It does not matter how many agencies are involved as IR35 concerns the reality of your relationship with the end client - the NHS hospital.

[perplexed]

Many Locums should already be inside, same as social workers I believe. It's on a case by case bases but I believe it's very difficult for a locum with an NHS hospital and social works to be outside.

Kate Cottrell said as much here..

Locum Hospital Doctor and IR35 | AccountingWEB

That's clear enough.

I was wondering how hard Hector would go after them tbh and how much effort public sector orgs will put into reporting them as inside.

Media and public love doctors, IT contractors not so much.

I can well envisage Hector turning a blind eye to locums.

EDIT: Factor in agency nurses too... granted incredibly unlikely they'll have PSC's but the system will eventually extend to hammer them given the cost to the NHS at the moment.

[sal]

You are missing out on a bit there. I reckon a lot of universities (or at least the people recruiting for these roles) are equally ignorant....

Can't comment on recruiters, but at least two of the major London Universities that i know of are perfectly and painfully aware of IR35, the changes to PS in regards to it and what it entails for them. Unis are usually full with above average intelligence people, unlike other PSBs where it goes the other way around.