Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[InformationDesigner]

I had a similar response and still not convinced.

What's the rush when no tribunal is forthcoming

Where did the 1.3 million figure come from?

Apparently 1300 of you are involved in this so that's less than £1000 each

The obvious thing also (to me) would be to hook up with Boox's client base and (the wording of one of their capture is slightly different but not the point) instruct one legal team.

As always HMRC disputes are a cash cow for 'experts', lawyers and HMRC (without winning) it's the fear factor.

All of the above. I do not understand why they are not coordinating their efforts or providing timelines, clear breakdowns or simply starting with a voluntary contribution request to a ringfenced account.

Sure, there may be businesses that cannot stretch to a grand right now (post pandemic, Brexit, cost of living crisis, etc. etc.) but if that's the case, just post funding received vs funding target and then ask for further voluntary contributions with a deadline on when the target needs to be reached.

I am more than happy to contribute to a fighting fund but this has been handled in a frankly insane manner. Do not just terrify people with £5000+ requests and then get all weirdly defensive when asked for details. That's alarm bells territory.

[Hareforthebear]

All of the above. I do not understand why they are not coordinating their efforts or providing timelines, clear breakdowns or simply starting with a voluntary contribution request to a ringfenced account.

Sure, there may be businesses that cannot stretch to a grand right now (post pandemic, Brexit, cost of living crisis, etc. etc.) but if that's the case, just post funding received vs funding target and then ask for further voluntary contributions with a deadline on when the target needs to be reached.

I am more than happy to contribute to a fighting fund but this has been handled in a frankly insane manner. Do not just terrify people with £5000+ requests and then get all weirdly defensive when asked for details. That's alarm bells territory.

This does seem bizarre. Is it the case they have essentially run out of money to pay their advisors and are trying to scrape some up under this pretext?

As far as I am aware BOOX have their head in the sand in the entire issue as have heard nothing from them post appeals deadline.

There are a whole lot more parties than just CK clients that have a vested interest in fighting this, BOOX clients affected and any accountancy firm that deals with contractors for a start.

This seems very dubious I would not give them a penny as i would be suspicious you are just paying off already incurred legal bills, and more to the point the manner in which they have approached this clearly shows they either take you for idiots, or are completely incompetent and lost so why would you trust them.

There has to be a more co-ordinated effort on this across the board when the time is right, no-one is even aware of any impending tribunals at this stage as far as we can tell.

[DealorNoDeal]

If this case was to go all the way, then it would be:

First Tier Tribunal -> Upper Tribunal -> Court of Appeal -> Supreme Court

Once you get beyond the Upper Tribunal, costs can be awarded against you if you lose. That's when it can start getting mighty expensive because HMRC don't use cheap lawyers!

£1.2M is probably not far off to take it all the way. BUT it may never get that far. I doubt it's even in the queue at the FTT yet.

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I don't know what on earth CK were thinking, asking for such astronomic amounts, which was bound to alienate people. They've done themselves no favours.

[coxy]

This does seem bizarre. Is it the case they have essentially run out of money to pay their advisors and are trying to scrape some up under this pretext?

As far as I am aware BOOX have their head in the sand in the entire issue as have heard nothing from them post appeals deadline.

There are a whole lot more parties than just CK clients that have a vested interest in fighting this, BOOX clients affected and any accountancy firm that deals with contractors for a start.

This seems very dubious I would not give them a penny as i would be suspicious you are just paying off already incurred legal bills, and more to the point the manner in which they have approached this clearly shows they either take you for idiots, or are completely incompetent and lost so why would you trust them.

There has to be a more co-ordinated effort on this across the board when the time is right, no-one is even aware of any impending tribunals at this stage as far as we can tell.

So are BOOX not fighting the case, not taking it to a tribunal? I assume affected individuals are fighting the decision?

[jamesbrown]

I don't know what on earth CK were thinking, asking for such astronomic amounts, which was bound to alienate people. They've done themselves no favours.

Marketing and communication has never been their strong suit. Just look at their horrendous marketing surrounding "completely hands free" accounting, which certainly exacerbated their problems, if not triggered them in the first place.

[avbi]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the posts been very informative but things still remain a blurry mess.
Wanted to ask where could I go for independent advice? Since going perm I can not afford lawyers fees.
Kind Regards,

[eek]

If this case was to go all the way, then it would be:

First Tier Tribunal -> Upper Tribunal -> Court of Appeal -> Supreme Court

Once you get beyond the Upper Tribunal, costs can be awarded against you if you lose. That's when it can start getting mighty expensive because HMRC don't use cheap lawyers!

£1.2M is probably not far off to take it all the way. BUT it may never get that far. I doubt it's even in the queue at the FTT yet.

--------------------------

I don't know what on earth CK were thinking, asking for such astronomic amounts, which was bound to alienate people. They've done themselves no favours.

The stupidest thing is that CK / Boox are going to be the lead cases in what I suspect will be a whole set of cases as other companies are implicated as MSCs for 2018/19 and onward.

So, there is very little need to collect all the money now because once the first tribunal has been won / lost a lot of other parties are likely to be very interested / concerned in the outcome and will be willing to pay towards the appeals.

[Bonerp]

The stupidest thing is that CK / Boox are going to be the lead cases in what I suspect will be a whole set of cases as other companies are implicated as MSCs for 2018/19 and onward.

So, there is very little need to collect all the money now because once the first tribunal has been won / lost a lot of other parties are likely to be very interested / concerned in the outcome and will be willing to pay towards the appeals.

It would seem sensible to combine efforts and have one fighting fund. As I mentioned before I'd rather the MSC Fighting Fund group was our central contact point (appreciating how much effort this will take). Not CKA.

[rdw1970]

So are BOOX not fighting the case, not taking it to a tribunal? I assume affected individuals are fighting the decision?

From what I understand, in legal terms, HMRC is not (yet) in dispute with Boox. HMRC are still reviewing test appeals from Boox's clients so they are still some way off taking these sample cases to a FTT.

[rdw1970]

It would seem sensible to combine efforts and have one fighting fund. As I mentioned before I'd rather the MSC Fighting Fund group was our central contact point (appreciating how much effort this will take). Not CKA.

I think that's what David Kirk wanted. For his group to join up with IPSE and WTT and get cases to a tribunal before HMRC. CK clearly hasn't spoken to him or the other groups then following their demands yesterday.