The Times on Saturday 12th May

[luxCon]

I understand on Saturday's Times there is a sympathetic article on the 2019 Loan Charge. I could not get a copy. Anyone seen it?

[GreenMirror]

Do you mean this https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-...down-t3t8j85cx ?

I think CUK has rules on copying text from articles?

However it is claimed 100,000 are affected. Another poster here seems to have heard 200,000 are affected.

Also the article is not so much sympathetic as factual. One MP has created an EDM. Big deal. Even if 400+ MPS sign an EDM it proves little. The loan charge forms part of the finance act and if that is defeated it is in effect a vote of no-confidence in the government and triggers a general election.

With the HMRC extension of reforms of public sector to private sector, HMRC are very confident they have the whip hand.

Between this and Brexit my preparations to leave the UK are well advanced!

[luxCon]

So defeatist

Do you mean this https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-...down-t3t8j85cx ?


Also the article is not so much sympathetic as factual. One MP has created an EDM. Big deal. Even if 400+ MPS sign an EDM it proves little. The loan charge forms part of the finance act and if that is defeated it is in effect a vote of no-confidence in the government and triggers a general election.

Yes thats the one, I managed to get a hard copy.


I am amazed how defeatist people are when it comes to challenging the establishment on such laws. Time after time I read multiple posters challenge any kind of protests, petitions and challenge to what clearly we know is unfair and unjust.

Even the petition for 2019 Loan charge has only managed a measly 552 signatures so far. Its would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Read all the comments mocking and poo pooing it;

https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...pectively.html

And when someone setup an petition against IR35 on another thread he got mucked and laughed at as if by a bunch of 12 year olds in the school playground. Just read ;

https://forums.contractoruk.com/publ...inst-ir35.html


Why do we even bother having these forums, we might as well shut down, go to HMRC and ask them to come and take what they like. I wished the spirit was a bit more positive and organised in challenging this issue.

So if the EDM is progressed it will result in a vote of no confidence in the government? And you think thats a bad thing? If it leads to an early election so be it.

Basically HMRC created this law doing their impact assessment based on the few High Net Worth individuals such as footballers, million plus earning directors and mega earning entertainers/celebrities saying that 2019 DR Loan Charge will have very little impact on people's life and wealth as they are all already very cash rich. They then applied it across the board on what they say is 40,000 individuals. But we know that figure is more like 100,000 to 200,000. Multiply that by the partners, children and other dependants. so something like 400,000+ people are directly effected. Yet the petition gets 552 signatures.


There is something in having an organised and positive campaign. Put pressure on the MPs to support the EDM, to pass on concerns to the ministers. Yet its easier to lie down and be a victim.

[webberg]

I can't answer for why there appears to be an attitude that this fight is already lost. I suspect that it's a combination of thinking that whatever happens HMRC may well change the law; constant and sometimes certainly abusive pressure from HMRC; embarrassment at being victims; etc.

We have our plan and growing numbers but its a relatively small part of the estimated population, no matter whose number is correct.

We certainly have no intention of going silent into the night.

Ultimately HMRC has to answer to the law and in my opinion, their present analysis is a long way from legal.

That said, where are those with the numbers and resources who could pull this whole thing together?

Where are the agencies, the accounting firms, the umbrellas, the trade organisations?

All of them have generated considerable income from those now under the cosh and continue to do so, whilst contributing what?

I have no numbers to hand, but I would bet a considerable sum that if the top 10 agencies put out a message to their clients that they should sign the petition and get involved, there would be a massive increase.

Why are they not?

If you are contracting via an agency, why not ask them tomorrow?

[GreenMirror]

Yes thats the one, I managed to get a hard copy.


I am amazed how defeatist people are when it comes to challenging the establishment on such laws. Time after time I read multiple posters challenge any kind of protests, petitions and challenge to what clearly we know is unfair and unjust.

Even the petition for 2019 Loan charge has only managed a measly 552 signatures so far. Its would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Read all the comments mocking and poo pooing it;

https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...pectively.html

And when someone setup an petition against IR35 on another thread he got mucked and laughed at as if by a bunch of 12 year olds in the school playground. Just read ;

https://forums.contractoruk.com/publ...inst-ir35.html


Why do we even bother having these forums, we might as well shut down, go to HMRC and ask them to come and take what they like. I wished the spirit was a bit more positive and organised in challenging this issue.

So if the EDM is progressed it will result in a vote of no confidence in the government? And you think thats a bad thing? If it leads to an early election so be it.

Basically HMRC created this law doing their impact assessment based on the few High Net Worth individuals such as footballers, million plus earning directors and mega earning entertainers/celebrities saying that 2019 DR Loan Charge will have very little impact on people's life and wealth as they are all already very cash rich. They then applied it across the board on what they say is 40,000 individuals. But we know that figure is more like 100,000 to 200,000. Multiply that by the partners, children and other dependants. so something like 400,000+ people are directly effected. Yet the petition gets 552 signatures.


There is something in having an organised and positive campaign. Put pressure on the MPs to support the EDM, to pass on concerns to the ministers. Yet its easier to lie down and be a victim.

I was trying to point out how hard it is to fight - hence you should double your efforts.

I suspect most caught by the Loan Charge feel guilty and embarrassed for having been duped. I know I do. About a week after I joined I got a huge sinking feeling, did some research and got out asap. I was only in for a month.

I also believe that the scheme should have been closed earlier(it had many running for a very long time), that HMRC should have changed the law earlier(I found it hard to believe that HMRC have let loan schemes run since 1999) and that the promoters and QCs seem to be unaffected. What am I missing?

Have you taken a look at the loan charge action group? They seem to be doing good work.

It is not just regarding HMRC that people do little. Speeding is the same. If everyone who got a ticket went to court the system would collapse. I suppose other areas are the same.

Personally I have had an APN, paid it and am just waiting to see what happens.

So I am sorry if you were discouraged by my comments. I urge you to double your efforts.

[cojak]

I can't answer for why there appears to be an attitude that this fight is already lost. I suspect that it's a combination of thinking that whatever happens HMRC may well change the law; constant and sometimes certainly abusive pressure from HMRC; embarrassment at being victims; etc.

It's because we've seen this all before:

2008: Where it all began:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ight-back.html

2010: (BN66 - JR Judgment Day - this was a biggie...)
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ement-day.html

2011:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...al-beyond.html

2012: (NTRT = No To Retro Tax)
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ct-2008-a.html

And the first trickle of other schemes getting caught:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...on-letter.html

2013:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...ontpelier.html

The trickle became a flood at this point:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...-pipeline.html

2016:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...-bulletin.html

To not answer your question would do a huge disservice to DonkeyRhubarb, Brillopad, DOTASSCANDAL, SantaClaus, Emigre, turnover, convict and all the other posters who have put years (10+ in some cases) in fighting this.

Having AML posters turn up in the last 2 months and think that this is all new and why aren't people fighting it, is mildly insulting to be honest.

If you want another crack at it, good for you - go right ahead.

But don’t be surprised if you don’t find many queueing up behind you.

[Loan Ranger]

It's because we've seen this all before:

2008: Where it all began:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ight-back.html

2010: (BN66 - JR Judgment Day - this was a biggie...)
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ement-day.html

2011:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...al-beyond.html

2012: (NTRT = No To Retro Tax)
https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...ct-2008-a.html

And the first trickle of other schemes getting caught:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...on-letter.html

2013:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...ontpelier.html

The trickle became a flood at this point:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...-pipeline.html

2016:
https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...-bulletin.html

To not answer your question would do a huge disservice to DonkeyRhubarb, Brillopad, DOTASSCANDAL, SantaClaus, Emigre, turnover, convict and all the other posters who have put years (10+ in some cases) in fighting this.

Having AML posters turn up in the last 2 months and think that this is all new and why aren't people fighting it, is mildly insulting to be honest.

If you want another crack at it, good for you - go right ahead.

But don’t be surprised if you don’t find many queueing up behind you.

Thanks for posting all those links. It shows how bloody hard it is taking on the establishment.

NTRT got 2 debates in Parliament over BN66/s58 and had an amendment tabled to a Finance Bill but it all came to nothing.

Those coming at it now would do well to learn from the past.

[NotAllThere]

So if the EDM is progressed it will result in a vote of no confidence in the government? And you think thats a bad thing? If it leads to an early election so be it.

No government wants what is effectively a vote of no confidence to be passed. The government has a majority and so will ensure that the EDM isn't passed. Individual Tory MPs are unlikely to sacrifice their political careers in bringing their own government down over this issue.

The purpose of this EDM, like most EDMs, is to raise the profile of the issue - not to get the law changed.

Unless a government supports a bill it is very unlikely for it to become law.

[WTFH]

I am amazed how defeatist people are when it comes to challenging the establishment on such laws. Time after time I read multiple posters challenge any kind of protests, petitions and challenge to what clearly we know is unfair and unjust.

Even the petition for 2019 Loan charge has only managed a measly 552 signatures so far. Its would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Read all the comments mocking and poo pooing it;...etc...

I am amazed at the number of people suddenly appearing on here, and rather than reading about all the effort that has gone on over the last decade, or even the last couple of years, they start posting new threads as if this was something unexpected, that no one on here has worked hard to fight against and that no one was aware of.

There is a complete section of this forum dedicated to HMRC Scheme Enquiries, take a look at it. Those who have been running a marathon are tired towards the finish. If someone started the race within sight of the finish line, then wanted to know why everyone else wasn't as fresh and fast as them, they might get a few quizzical looks.

[phil@pmtc]

Just realised the article quotes HMRC as claiming ‘no one will be driven to bankruptcy’ . That’s an incredibly bold claim but I suppose they mean ‘by them’ whereas in reality a huge number will be forced to ‘choose’ bankruptcy. Otherwise I guess some extraordinarily long TTP agreements are going to have to be agreed.