Coming over here, taking our jobs...

[AtW]

Well it rather depends on whether you think that someone who is working is entitled to expect a minimum standard of living, and what that minimum standard should be.

That's what minimum wage should be about - provide minimum standard of living.

other people are prepared to bunk up three to a room, those people will be able to undercut you.

I am not competing against people who bunk up like that, even in my early days I had a whole room to myself just like other immigrants in that house.

Increasing minimum wage is the answer to this - it should provide decent standard of living (at least outside London)

[Mich the Tester]

What qualifications do you need to clean toilets? And we have minimum wage... £7ph or whatever it is seems quite good for cleaning a loo.

In NL many cleaners have qualifications; they're trained in using the right cleaning materials, tricks of the trade and so on and can progress to specialist cleaning qualifications for industry, laboratories and so on where they can earn a bit more; some employers also demand those qualifications for their cleaning staff. Sounds a bit crazy, but it exists.

[vetran]

They are lower cost, their families stay in their own country and the pay & benefits are sent home making the family well off at home. The workers camp out in multiple occupancy in rented houses.

What qualifications do you need to clean or wait tables in a cafe? But if you were offered a British born 18 yr old with no qualifications wanting £8 an hour or a Eastern European degree qualified person wanting £7 an hour which would you take?

Its a race to the bottom. It's not the fault of either worker, they are demonised because governments want cheaper workers.

[Mich the Tester]

That's what minimum wage should be about - provide minimum standard of living.

Combined with low taxes to avoid taking away the incentive to work.

[AtW]

Combined with low taxes to avoid taking away the incentive to work.

Living wage (at real level) should be free of any taxes.

[Mich the Tester]

They are lower cost, their families stay in their own country and the pay & benefits are sent home making the family well off at home. The workers camp out in multiple occupancy in rented houses.

What qualifications do you need to clean or wait tables in a cafe? But if you were offered a British born 18 yr old with no qualifications wanting £8 an hour or a Eastern European degree qualified person wanting £7 an hour which would you take?

Its a race to the bottom. It's not the fault of either worker, they are demonised because governments want cheaper workers.

That depends on the business model. If you're running a cheapo take away then you'd take the Eastern European on 7 quid an hour and he'll probably gain some experience and then get a better job. If you're running an expensive restaurant or at least a more ambitious business you might pay a little more or provide some training so people can provide excellent service and move from cleaning tables to higher positions in the restaurant trade. Thing is, if you want to do well in the hospitality business you have to start at the bottom, gain training and qualifications and move on up, and it looks like too few people are prepared to do that. Bear in mind that the owner of a restaurant probably started out washing dishes or wiping tables too.

[AtW]

What qualifications do you need to clean or wait tables in a cafe? But if you were offered a British born 18 yr old with no qualifications wanting £8 an hour or a Eastern European degree qualified person wanting £7 an hour which would you take?

I'd take the one who'd do better job.

[vetran]

Thing is, if you want to do well in the hospitality business you have to start at the bottom, gain training and qualifications and move on up, and it looks like too few people are prepared to do that. Bear in mind that the owner of a restaurant probably started out washing dishes or wiping tables too.

So then how does the brit get experience?

Also many people aren't driven like us, they work to pay the bills so advancement may not appeal.

[d000hg]

They are lower cost, their families stay in their own country and the pay & benefits are sent home making the family well off at home. The workers camp out in multiple occupancy in rented houses.

What qualifications do you need to clean or wait tables in a cafe? But if you were offered a British born 18 yr old with no qualifications wanting £8 an hour or a Eastern European degree qualified person wanting £7 an hour which would you take?

Its a race to the bottom. It's not the fault of either worker, they are demonised because governments want cheaper workers.

Why are you picking arbitrary figures out of the air? Why are English people only willing to work for £8 but immigrants for £7? Loads of people in the UK work for minimum wage.

[xoggoth]

But sometimes people who speak no English get jobs at tiny ethnic businesses where the same comment can be made of the owners - barely profitable ethnic shops, restaurants in areas that already have too many and that just take passing business from the existing ones. Try a Google of fast food shops and Tower Hamlets. Another major area for migrants is data processing or leafleting for marketing companies, those people who annoy you with cold calling and leaflets. Or car washing, that "you want car wash?" that is so annoying every time you go the supermarket in the South East and which just takes profits from your local garage. Not all employment is useful to the UK economy, let alone the existing population and especially when low wages have to be supplemented by welfare to support a family.

Another relevant factor, especially in the wake of the Duggan enquiry, is that it is not the white British who are being pushed out. Unemployment for younger members of ethnic minorities, especially black youths, is now up to a massive 37% and rising, compared to a steady 21% for the UK as a whole. It is everyone's interests to get them back into our society/economy if we want to avoid more gang crime and riots. Some of you lefty twits really ought to read your Guardian.

Rising unemployment for UK's ethnic minorities: who's affected? | News | theguardian.com