FGM - why?? FFS Why?

[SueEllen]

So, what are YOU going to do to prevent FGM?

Since I've known about it since I was a teen - woman's mags sometimes do have useful information in them - I've done some of my bit already by telling other Western women about it.

[d000hg]

you mean circumcision?

Agree completely it should be banned on babies, consenting adults and medical reasons can continue.

It's not such a big deal though is it? Lots of similarly small, medically valid, procedures are done on babies and it's surely the best time to do it.

Compared to being born, it's got to be practically nothing! Or do babies have some special mechanism which makes them immune to pain during birth?

[xoggoth]

And don't forget breast flattening, beating kids to drive out evil spirits, belief in witchcraft, forced marriage, honour killing and rejection of secular society, democracy, personal freedom in private life or equality of women.

Insane we let this sort of thing into the UK. Citizenship tests should be examining attitudes instead of asking idiot questions about who built the Tower of London.

[d000hg]

Why is personal freedom up there on that list? Where is that enshrined as sacrosanct?

[SueEllen]

It's not such a big deal though is it? Lots of similar, medically valid, procedures are done on babies and it's surely the best time to do it.

No the best time to do it is when the boy child is slightly older.

I
Compared to being born, it's got to be practically nothing! Or do babies have some special mechanism which makes them immune to pain during birth?

Also one of the issues is that it's done by religious people or others who have aren't medically trained to do the procedure and may not use sterile instruments, don't use anaesthetic and may not do it in a sterile environment. This case is an example of the untrained idiots who do it linky

Most boys turn out fine but ask any doctor or nurse who works with or has worked with children about what they have seen relating to it. (Just a warning don't ask too much detail.)

Some NHS hospitals will do male circumcisions with surgeons doing the procedure in the right environment etc. to stop this. The parents are expected to make a "donation" to the hospital. I actually grew up with some people whose baby brothers were circumcised at the local hospital.

[SueEllen]

And don't forget breast flattening, beating kids to drive out evil spirits, belief in witchcraft, forced marriage, honour killing and rejection of secular society, democracy, personal freedom in private life or equality of women.

Insane we let this sort of thing into the UK. Citizenship tests should be examining attitudes instead of asking idiot questions about who built the Tower of London.

If you are a citizen of another EU nation i.e. France, Sweden you don't have to take the UK citizen test to stay here so it wouldn't help. There is a flow of people from other EU countries to the UK due to a perception that there is less day-to-day racism in the UK partially due to the fact we don't have to walk around with ID cards.

[xoggoth]

Why is personal freedom up there on that list? Where is that enshrined as sacrosanct?

I said personal freedom in private life Bit different, I only believe in personal freedom if it does not impact other people in a major way. For example, I support the ban on drinking on the tube, there is a greater good that is worth more than the very minor imposition on our freedom given that we can drink at home.

Are you even saying that people have no right to do what they like in their own homes even when it affects nobody else? In that case you have something in common with some of the imported religious nuts I am objecting too.

[d000hg]

Also one of the issues is that it's done by religious people or others who have aren't medically trained to do the procedure and may not use sterile instruments, don't use anaesthetic and may not do it in a sterile environment.

Good points.

I said personal freedom in private life Bit different, I only believe in personal freedom if it does not impact other people in a major way. For example, I support the ban on drinking on the tube, there is a greater good that is worth more than the very minor imposition on our freedom given that we can drink at home.

Are you even saying that people have no right to do what they like in their own homes even when it affects nobody else? In that case you have something in common with some of the imported religious nuts I am objecting too.

I'm asking why/if you feel it is a basic right that you should be able to do whatever you want in private?
I actually thought you were perhaps coming at this from a personal privacy angle rather than personal freedom - if you listen to the people blathering about PRISM and NSA and Google on the web you'd get the idea that privacy is something that is a fundamental human right, and I don't know where that believe comes from.

As for personal freedom... if you're breaking the law in secret you're still breaking the law. Most people prefer to break the law in private, otherwise they get caught!

[xoggoth]

if you're breaking the law in secret you're still breaking the law

It's bad law if it's intruding on personal and private freedoms when they affect nobody else. No more than most things do anyway, just sitting watching TV too much has consequences for NHS expenditure.

[vetran]

Good points.

I'm asking why/if you feel it is a basic right that you should be able to do whatever you want in private?
I actually thought you were perhaps coming at this from a personal privacy angle rather than personal freedom - if you listen to the people blathering about PRISM and NSA and Google on the web you'd get the idea that privacy is something that is a fundamental human right, and I don't know where that believe comes from.

As for personal freedom... if you're breaking the law in secret you're still breaking the law. Most people prefer to break the law in private, otherwise they get caught!

Article 8 of the Yuman rights act. among others.

I suspect Xoggy was talking about legal activities and quasi legal (e.g. BDSM) not chopping up your loved ones, though reading his tales that may be optional.

You can happily play Music loud in private, when it is too loud for the neighbours you are breaking the law.