Muslims stirring it

[xoggoth]

To get married in my church, I had to attend meetings with my vicar, 4, before

Wow! Vicars are getting younger every day.

Actually, while I'm all in favour of gay equality, this drive to push through "marriage" rights when they already have civil partnerships seems to be argument over a word for no very good reason and it's damaging the principle in general. Sometimes things are better done slowly

[d000hg]

I am guessing you are religious, and are as scared as the church are with this.

Why would I be scared? My church isn't forced to marry anyone if it doesn't want to.

I don't see the similarities; we're talking about believers wishing to be married in the eyes of their lord. Not unbelievers. Freedom of religious expression to all.

But the religion they want to perform the service can turn around and say "our religion doesn't allow this" in the same way that divorcees are not allowed to remarry in some churches/religions?

They should do what they do in other European countries. You can only legally be married in a registrary office.

I agree with this, make a wedding (or civil union), only legal if it is created in a registry office. The religious types can then have a ceremony in a church if required.

I agree with this too. In fact this is exactly what MANY churches do - the lifeblood of English Christianity is currently not in official churches like CofE/Methodist, but independent churches who don't often have their own buildings or licenses to perform weddings. So all over the country, people are doing just this - a civil wedding with 2 witnesses and then a special church meeting which they count as the 'real' wedding.

Plus this will take a lot of funding away from the churches, 2 birds and all that....

Only from the ones people don't actually worship in.

[Hawk]

So then the church can refuse to marry them just as they can refuse to marry anyone else?

You stated a religious wedding was a human right, which suggests a church is forced to marry heterosexual people already. I dispute that.

I will ask my FiL, but I am sure they cannot be denied a marriage in church; I am not too sure a church can simply say no, we don't want to marry you hear. I may be wrong, but I think that could definitely, from what I have read this morning, be a breach of their human rights.

EDIT

"If one of the people who wish to be married lives in the parish, and they meet all the legal requirements, then whilst he can make life dificult, e.g. insist on proper religious preparation, set date and time, the facilities the church will (or not) provide but he can't say no."

Sorry, edit of edit, unless previously divorced, then up to vicar at discretion.

[d000hg]

By 'a church' do you specifically mean a CofE (i.e. state) church?

This is by no means authoritative but: http://downlandchurches.co.uk/who.html

If you are British and have not been married before (or if a previous marriage ended with the death of your spouse) then a man and woman usually have the right to be married in the Church of England. Contrary to popular belief, you to do not have to be a regular church goer, or baptised, although you do have to accept that the form of service used will be a Christian service, authorised by the Church of England.

If you have been married before and divorced.

If this is the case, then you will need to speak to the Priest-in-Charge, and to the person who you want to take the service (if this is a different priest). A priest has the right to refuse to marry in Church those who have been previously married and divorced, which means that some churches may allow this whilst others do not. In this Benefice, the policy is that we are willing to agree to your marriage in church, subject to a few preliminary enquiries, and to the agreement of the priest who will take the service. You will be given an application form which explains the Church’s position on this issue and asks for some details of your previous marriage. If it is not possible to agree to marry you in Church, it is usually still possible to have a Church Blessing after a civil marriage. The service is very similar to the marriage service.

I don't believe the same exclusivity exists for other churches, even the Catholics who are the closest to being 'official'

[Hawk]

So one does have the right to be married in church.

[d000hg]

So one does have the right to be married in The Church of England.

Did you not notice that it says:

If you are British and have not been married before (or if a previous marriage ended with the death of your spouse) then a man and woman usually have the right to be married in the Church of England.

One would have to look more deeply to find what that 'usually' omits. My quick Googling is not proving very fruitful here.

[Hawk]

Ah, but you say that, but the reality is very different. I have just spoken to a Canon of the Anglican Church and he assures me, they cannot turn someone down, at all, if they fit certain criteria, as I pointed out before; they can make life genuiinely difficult, but, by law, they cannot turn them down, by law, you know, legally.

By defitinition, they have a legal right to be married. As long as one lives in the parish, and has not been divorced. You do not have to believe me, but research it. I just spoke with my FiL, quoted what he said, and have just spent 30 mins looking it up and a vicar cannot legally deny someone the right of marriage, subject to the conditions my FiL mentioned.

[d000hg]

Exactly: if they fit certain criteria. But what are those criteria? Clearly things like they're not closely related, they're old enough, and (for now) they are different genders... but where is the full list?

If this is specific to the CofE, which I believe it is, then maybe ONLY the CofE should be forced to marry same-sex people, IF other churches (of any religions) ARE allowed to refuse marriage on grounds of religion, divorce, etc, etc. I bet the CofE would love that outcome

[Hawk]

Exactly: if they fit certain criteria. But what are those criteria? Clearly things like they're not closely related, they're old enough, and (for now) they are different genders... but where is the full list?

If this is specific to the CofE, which I believe it is, then maybe ONLY the CofE should be forced to marry same-sex people, IF other churches (of any religions) ARE allowed to refuse marriage on grounds of religion, divorce, etc, etc. I bet the CofE would love that outcome

From speaking the the FiL, the criteria are quite simple; they have to live in the parish, and not be divorced. He didn't mention same sex couples, but it's just bacause he'd not think of mentioning it.

As I said, once they have asked, and he's checked they're in the parish, and not divorced, he has to marry them. But, he said he can make them attend church 3/4 times, he can request to speak to them at home to ask them about their view on marriage, can can piss about with dates, and whether the organ player is available, the choir, etc, etc. But he absolutely cannot say no.

I think the CoE would like that outcome you've stated. The problem, I can foresee, is that once they allow marriage, then all institutions who provide 'marriage', would be legally bound to offer that service to same sex couples. The EU have quite openly stated, it is fine not to force churches to marry same sex couples, until you allow same sex couples to marry. Once you do that, you open up the same legal rights to same sex couples, as you do to Hetrosexual.

It's going to create huge divisions.

[MyUserName]

Maybe we should simply remove the various rights that churches have and provide them via secular channels e.g. marriage must be done legally at a registry office and anything you want can be done afterwards - I have some pagan friends married that way.

Then the Muslims, Christians etc can all compete for recruits on an equal footing and no one else has to care because they are not influencing the law for the rest of us.