ICTs

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Ta - any recommended books on the matter for perusal?

You could do worse than Lord Byron's maiden speech to the Lords -

"The perseverance of these miserable men in their proceedings, tends to prove that nothing but absolute want could have driven a large and once honest and industrious body of the people into the commission of excesses so hazardous to themselves, their families, and the community… These men were willing to dig, but the space was in other hands; they were not ashamed to beg, but there was none to relieve them. Their own means of subsistence were cut off; all other employments pre-occupied; and their excesses, however to be deplored and condemned, can hardly be the subject of surprise."

[DodgyAgent]

There's no perhaps about it. These were highly skilled workers who were bound to employers for several years to learn their trade. They were almost instantly dismissed - they were given no opportunities for retraining or other work and they had no other way to make a living wage - some of the contemporary accounts (including those written by sympathetic gentry) are truly gut-wrenching.

Perhaps they should have seen the end coming and reskilled themselves.

Again this ICT thing is not a question of technology/modern practices taking over nor is it one of competition. Offshoring is here as a legitimate competitive facility. ICT on the other hand is a corrupt practice that should be stopped.

[d000hg]

It seems to me that they only exist to appease the total bastards that run multinational fascist companies - but what do I know?

Not much, if you use the word fascist when talking about a multinational company.

Can someone put the cogent case (if there is one) for why it's better for Britain to import thousands of cheap skilled workers rather than train some of our own?

Easy. Lets say you run a smallish company and you need to hire people for a new project starting this year. You could hire cheap people and train them up, but you need the people now. Now, you see why companies want freedom to hire anyone from around the world.

FTFY but it will be years until companies remember that 1 good onshore programmer is equal to 10 offshore ones.

Bad argument. 1 good onshore programmer is also equal to 10 mediocre onshore programmers, and 1 good offshore programmer is better than 1 mediocre onshore programmer.

Which, in itself, begs the question why the incompetent Bobs proliferate rather then the competent eastern Europeans.

Because one would have to pay Eastern Europeans the same rates as UK workers

That's simply not true. I subcontract work to people in India and Eastern Europe and I find the E.Europeans are at least as cheap, for a similar standard. I hire decent, very technically capable, programmers for $13-20/hr.

[DodgyAgent]

That's simply not true. I subcontract work to people in India and Eastern Europe and I find the E.Europeans are at least as cheap, for a similar standard. I hire decent, very technically capable, programmers for $13-20/hr.

You will know better than I what it costs to outsource. However unless programmers are from outside of the EU I very much doubt you will be able to hire Eastern Europeans to work on site for low pay (for very long anyway)

[amcdonald]

It is not about protectionism it is about immigration loopholes that enable foreign workers to come to the UK and undermine our system. Eastern Europeans fine they can work here and we can work there. Poland is growing and at some point it will be a wealthy country to sell to.

Also the same eastern europeans have the same living costs working over here, at least they're fair competition.

[Arturo Bassick]

Also the same eastern europeans have the same living costs working over here, at least they're fair competition.

and what makes you think the Bobs can live any cheaper?

**You are close to explaining the difference, but have yet to make the point.

[amcdonald]

and what makes you think the Bobs can live any cheaper?

**You are close to explaining the difference, but have yet to make the point.

Because they're either provided with accomodation or prepared to link in squalid conditions, where landlords fit multiple occupants into a room

If we were prepared to live in shanty towns and earn peanuts we could compete

Sadly most of us have inflated mortgages to pay so can't compete...

[oscarose]

Because they're either provided with accomodation or prepared to link in squalid conditions, where landlords fit multiple occupants into a room

If we were prepared to live in shanty towns and earn peanuts we could compete

Sadly most of us have inflated mortgages to pay so can't compete...

WAMS

[Arturo Bassick]

Because they're either provided with accomodation

Carry on down this path, you are almost there

or prepared to link in squalid conditions, where landlords fit multiple occupants into a room

This is almost racist stereotyping which goes with..

If we were prepared to live in shanty towns and earn peanuts we could compete

I know lots of UK contractors who have board and lodging covered, I know at least one who has his weekly flights home covered. I worked in Belgium for a while and knew of a group of 8 UK contractors sharing a 4 bedroom house.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Not much, if you use the word fascist when talking about a multinational company.

Whatever - this is general, after all.

Easy. Lets say you run a smallish company and you need to hire people for a new project starting this year. You could hire cheap people and train them up, but you need the people now. Now, you see why companies want freedom to hire anyone from around the world.

Fail. I asked for a cogent argument for why ICTs are good for us (the UK as a whole) not for a simplistic piece of reasoning about why a company might want to do use them (I can manage that for myself).
Do you have such, or do you feel that they don't really offer any benefits to the UK?