No doubt it's all our fault

[Mailman]

Any religion that says it's okay to treat certain people as second class citizens (e.g. women, apostates, usurers, gays, adulterers, etc., etc.) is a crock of tulip.

I guess thats about all of them, except for them enlightened ones from India and even Confucism (sp??) perhaps?

Mailman

[threaded]

I guess thats about all of them, except for them enlightened ones from India and even Confucism (sp??) perhaps?

Mailman

Like Thugees perchance?

[xoggoth]

If we get any Western sensible leaders who do not see it as their duty to "spread democracy " (or whatever other high sounding name they like to give to invading other people's countries and trying to dictate their cultures) and will take a more even handed line in Palestine, then in a few decades the terrorism and extremism may be seen as no more as a passing phase.

That is not to say it is not a threat to a secular perrmissive society based on individual freedom as are more extreme forms of Christianity which seem to be gaining ground. The latter also seems to have a lot of non-British, sometimes third world, influence behind it. (Look at any evangelical site).

Those of us who believe in the general trends of our society over the last 50 years, eg on women's right, sexual tolerance, humane treatment of animals, rational laws*, should oppose Islam, Christianity or any other sodding religion that threatens them.


*Yeh, I know we dont really get any but we can hope

[The Master]

I think it really does boil down to any religion / movement / ideology / political structure / whatever that says "it's okay to treat certain people differently because they are not worthy" can just FOAD and has no place in a modern society.

[ALM]

ALM: You are entitled to your opinion as to the meaning of the Koran and I mine.

Of course, and I respect your right to hold the opinions you do. However, is there a genuine Koranic basis for the opinions you hold? I think not. Islam, Christianity and Judaism do not condone taking a life except in self defence. Irrespective of how relgious or unreligious we may be, suggesting otherwise is misleading IMO.

As you have studied Islam:

1. Is it possible for a Muslim to pick and choose which sura to obey?

Pick and choosing is not allowed in any religion. However, where in the Koran does it state that they are allowed to kill innocent civilians? Nowhere, and that is my point.

And yes, I do believe that ALL Muslims are willing to put all us infidels to the sword should that day come, but as I said before, it is just that most are not pushing for that day.
It will only take one Imam to say that day has come and they will have no choice. If they dont join in the will be put to death as apostates and eternally damned.

Ridiculous to the exteme LG. Should what day come?! There have been plenty of imams preaching religous hatred in the UK but most Muslims can see such preachings for what they are ignore them. if what you say is correct, all muslims would surely be running around Brick Lane, armed with swords foaming at the mouth. You may find reality boring LG but you really must try and keep in touch with it!

[Dundeegeorge]

Hoorah, a laugh-out-loud moment

You may find reality boring LG but you really must try and keep in touch with it!

Says the man defending a religion. You couldn't make it up (I believe the phrase is).

[The Master]

However, where in the Koran does it state that they are allowed to kill innocent civilians? Nowhere, and that is my point.

I think what happens in this case is some semantic dancing on the head of a pin. In the same way that it's now okay to take out a mortgage as long as you call the interest an "admin fee", the restriction on killing innocents is neatly by-passed by saying that those killed aren't innocent civilians at all, but agents of represive western colonial powers.

[xoggoth]

I think that's the crux of it. Why is it surprising when those from the third world have third world attitudes?

No problems within reason with what anyone does in their own country but I do not want these beliefs here when they run contrary to those of the majority and are promoted as the direction society should go and the ideas upon which our laws should be based.

About time too we stood up for the right of white British to have a culture and beliefs of their own like anyone else and stopped pretending that some practices, like ritual slaughter of animals or circumcision, are anything but barbaric backwardness.

[Dundeegeorge]

And cue the racist card

I think that's the crux of it. Why is it surprising when those from the third world have third world attitudes?

No problems within reason with what anyone does in their own country but I do not want these beliefs here when they run contrary to those of the majority and are promoted as the direction society should go and the ideas upon which our laws should be based.

About time too we stood up for the right of white British to have a culture and beliefs of their own like anyone else and stopped pretending that some practices, like ritual slaughter of animals or circumcision, are anything but barbaric backwardness.

come on, we're waiting.....

[ALM]

You may find reality boring LG but you really must try and keep in touch with it!

Says the man defending a religion. You couldn't make it up (I believe the phrase is).

Not defending religioin per se. Merely asking for it not to be misrepresented. And there is a difference!