muslim coppers

[northernladuk]

That I agree with. The problem here however is that a lot of these cells are underground.

However we have to also appreciate that the media does not highlight the positive aspects of the Muslim community - they just focus on the negative. For example take a look at this website:

www.ius.org.uk/giveblood

One of my friends from Uni set up that campaign to give blood to UK blood banks. 95% of those attending are muslim.

My point being is yes you are right they need to sort this issue out with us but at the same time media is doing a lot of damage to them when some of the decent folk actually do some work.

</yawn>

[xoggoth]

I am aware of tolerant treatment of the Jews (by the standards of the day) ECN but you are missing my point. It was very much on Muslim terms. Where is the evidence from Muslim countries either in the past or today that they would allow the sort of tolerance they expect from us?

Do Christians or others in most Muslim countries have the same freedom to build churches or temples as Muslims have to build mosques in major cities in most of the West?

Can they indulge in open expression of their faith in public places as some Muslims do in Luton and elsewhere?

Are they free to try and convert others to their faith and are citizens free to choose what they believe?

Does the law apply equal consideration to both sides in a family dispute between Muslim and non Muslim as it must here?

Does anyone deemed apostate or heretic by the Christian church here find themselves persecuted or stripped of some or all rights of citizenship?

I really suggest you pay less attention to what people tell you and try looking a bit harder at what really happens in many of the 50+ Islamic states and regions of the world.

[lilelvis2000]

I am aware of tolerant treatment of the Jews (by the standards of the day) ECN but you are missing my point. It was very much on Muslim terms. Where is the evidence from Muslim countries either in the past or today that they would allow the sort of tolerance they expect from us?

Do Christians or others in most Muslim countries have the same freedom to build churches or temples as Muslims have to build mosques in major cities in most of the West?

Can they indulge in open expression of their faith in public places as some Muslims do in Luton and elsewhere?

Are they free to try and convert others to their faith and are citizens free to choose what they believe?

Does the law apply equal consideration to both sides in a family dispute between Muslim and non Muslim as it must here?

Does anyone deemed apostate or heretic by the Christian church here find themselves persecuted or stripped of some or all rights of citizenship?

I really suggest you pay less attention to what people tell you and try looking a bit harder at what really happens in many of the 50+ Islamic states and regions of the world.

Beats me where you're going with that. Are you saying the UK should do the same?

[BlackenedBiker]

Beats me where you're going with that. Are you saying the UK should do the same?

I don't think he knows..

Muslim states are not tolerant. We are. Glad to live in GB. Long live tolerance

[EC4N]

I am aware of tolerant treatment of the Jews (by the standards of the day) ECN but you are missing my point. It was very much on Muslim terms. Where is the evidence from Muslim countries either in the past or today that they would allow the sort of tolerance they expect from us?

Do Christians or others in most Muslim countries have the same freedom to build churches or temples as Muslims have to build mosques in major cities in most of the West?

Can they indulge in open expression of their faith in public places as some Muslims do in Luton and elsewhere?

Are they free to try and convert others to their faith and are citizens free to choose what they believe?

Does the law apply equal consideration to both sides in a family dispute between Muslim and non Muslim as it must here?

Does anyone deemed apostate or heretic by the Christian church here find themselves persecuted or stripped of some or all rights of citizenship?

I really suggest you pay less attention to what people tell you and try looking a bit harder at what really happens in many of the 50+ Islamic states and regions of the world.

I partially agree with the rationale of some of your points but invariably whichever country you happen to reside in you are effectively under a covenant to the rules of that particular country. Different countries have their own constitutions and some are built on deep theological aspects of their religion dating back centuries and which are deemed sacrosanct whilst others have a more secular outlook. Irrespective, individuals choose to live in the type of environment they wish to live in.

[original PM]

I partially agree with the rationale of some of your points but invariably whichever country you happen to reside in you are effectively under a covenant to the rules of that particular country. Different countries have their own constitutions and some are built on deep theological aspects of their religion dating back centuries and which are deemed sacrosanct whilst others have a more secular outlook. Irrespective, individuals choose to live in the type of environment they wish to live in.

Probably true but given that science has proved that we are not at the mercy of some hugely greater entity/intellect - or that if we are it is so far beyond our comprehension as to be meaningless - then do you not think it is somewhat foolish to try to create laws based on what this entity/intellect may or may not want us to do.

If a country decided to start basing its laws on what it thinks Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy wants everyone would think they were crazy - with the probably exception of my daughter - but then she is six.


FFS

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I am aware of tolerant treatment of the Jews (by the standards of the day) ECN but you are missing my point. It was very much on Muslim terms. Where is the evidence from Muslim countries either in the past or today that they would allow the sort of tolerance they expect from us?

Do Christians or others in most Muslim countries have the same freedom to build churches or temples as Muslims have to build mosques in major cities in most of the West?

Can they indulge in open expression of their faith in public places as some Muslims do in Luton and elsewhere?

Are they free to try and convert others to their faith and are citizens free to choose what they believe?

Does the law apply equal consideration to both sides in a family dispute between Muslim and non Muslim as it must here?

Does anyone deemed apostate or heretic by the Christian church here find themselves persecuted or stripped of some or all rights of citizenship?

I really suggest you pay less attention to what people tell you and try looking a bit harder at what really happens in many of the 50+ Islamic states and regions of the world.

Your mixing between religion and politics here.

I don't think any Muslim would dispute that the political "leaders" of the Muslim world and their policies are often bad. Particularly in Saudi where you will find it at its worst in terms of oppression. However you are obviously quite ignorent to various facts:

- the largest jewish population outside Israel in the middle east is in big old scary Iran where they do have significant rights - BBC reported that the "nutter" ahmedinjad regularly donates to the jewish hospital in tehran
- Egypt, Syria and Lebanon all have large populations of Christians. Lebanese Christians probably have it best and half of them side with the "terrorist" hezbollah organisation. Christians are very free in all those 3 countries, infact they are more free than the Muslims
- If you have ever been to the Gulf states e.g. Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar you will see that they actually give too much respect to westerners. I have some collegues who have family in those areas and they get their asses kissed daily.

Point is its not that black and white. I agree that today the "Muslim" states are not good and you will find most Muslims agreeing with that. However let's not start on the foreign policy of various western nations and their continued support to these dictators who you are speaking against. Mubarek for example? Saddam in the 70's/80's and I could go on for ages.

Don't make out the world is black and white because it isn't and until you go and read and find out about other cultures and religions you will stay the ignorent fool that you currently are.

[xoggoth]

I used to be very tolerant of Islam until I started reading and finding out about it. For me too, it used to just about the perfectly pleasant guys I met at work.

If you have lived and worked for years in a middle Eastern country among its own people then your personal experiences would be valid but that, frankly, is not the typical expat work pattern. The Arab tradition of hospitality is probably nothing to do with Islam one way or another. I've been boozing with a coach load of Bulgarian factory workers but it didn't make me an expert in Bulgarian society.

One cannot judge a global belief on the basis of a relatively few people one meets or is friends with who happen to have that belief. Most people do relate to those they meet, it's natural but that doesn't remove the profound differences between their belief systems. When it comes to the choice of direction our society will take, do you think they going to put your wishes ahead of their own?

As for mixing religion and politics, we are not discussing despotic governments that happen to be Islamic, I perfectly appreciate that not everything that happens in a Muslim country has anything to do with Islam (some of the worst states are/have been secular) but to governments and authorities that base their laws on the principles of Islam, the mixing of the two is theirs not mine.

[BrilloPad]

I was surprised to read this article in the torygraph.

According to the National Association of Muslim Police (didn't know we had one of those), the biggest threat to National Security is not Islam, it's Nick Griffin and the BNP.



Not quite sure I agree personally...

Suprised that anyone wants to give more publicity to the BNP. As far as I am concerned they are a small group of bigots.

[ArthurBigot]

Suprised that anyone wants to give more publicity to the BNP. As far as I am concerned they are a small group of bigots.

There you go again...bigot this and bigot that always putting us bleedin bigots down