BOOM: England and Wales getting lots more skilled people

[Whorty]

We need a highly skilled high wage economy. The majority of benefit claimants are working, someone has to pay for that or we need to change.

We have automation coming, a third of none skilled staff will probably be laid off have a look at fast food chains & supermarkets.

High skills will give us a chance to compete. Lots of unskilled labour will lead to desperation and nastiness.

You talk about automation all the time but give no facts. I'd love to hear which 1/3 of none skilled jobs are going to be automated, and see this backed up with numbers from a reputable source.

You also say we need a high wage, high skilled economy ... again, care to explain where the work to meet the needs of the UK working age population is going to come from? If the UK workers were already trained and highly skilled then there would be little need to bring in 1 million Indian skilled workers. So how do you propose we train the millions in the UK who have little education to meet these highly skilled jobs you keep imagining will suddenly appear?

Or will you deflect from answering, as you always do, with an insult because everything you say is made up and not based on reality, but instead some right wing dogma you read somewhere on the inter-web?

I wait to be proven wrong

[SueEllen]

You can’t have a high wage economy if you are importing the third world to undercut your skilled labour.

Who said it is under cutting?

If you are a skilled professional you can go to any country who wants your skills and a lot of developed countries do want those skills.

Therefore it is up to you to do research on how much you will get paid and whether that's enough to cover your cost of living in that country. (I've warned a handful of people off coming here.)

I've done it and have met plenty of others who have done it. The only problem the UK has is that the tulip working conditions in some sectors mean that people only stay for a few years so leave with more skills and experience than they came with to go else where.

[ShandyDrinker]

You can’t have a high wage economy if you are importing the third world to undercut your skilled labour.

Spot on.

Who said it is under cutting?

If you are a skilled professional you can go to any country who wants your skills and a lot of developed countries do want those skills.

Therefore it is up to you to do research on how much you will get paid and whether that's enough to cover your cost of living in that country. (I've warned a handful of people off coming here.)

I've done it and have met plenty of others who have done it. The only problem the UK has is that the tulip working conditions in some sectors mean that people only stay for a few years so leave with more skills and experience than they came with to go else where.

But it is most often undercutting. People from other countries wanting to work or are prepared to work in this country for lower pay and ultimately living conditions than people already here. I do not blame people for wanting to better themselves. However, when it comes at a cost to the future of children and grand-children of people already in the UK, that's utterly wrong. If someone can do a degree in their home country either for free or for much less than the sky-high cost of a university education in the UK now and then come in and undercut UK workers just starting out because they're carrying £30k+ of debt, where's the incentive?

[WTFH]

But it is most often undercutting. People from other countries wanting to work or are prepared to work in this country for lower pay and ultimately living conditions than people already here. I do not blame people for wanting to better themselves. However, when it comes at a cost to the future of children and grand-children of people already in the UK, that's utterly wrong. If someone can do a degree in their home country either for free or for much less than the sky-high cost of a university education in the UK now and then come in and undercut UK workers just starting out because they're carrying £30k+ of debt, where's the incentive?

Are you daring to suggest that we shouldn't charge UK students to go to university? That will never happen, as no government will ever see the return in its parliamentary lifetime.

We don't have enough trained medical professionals in the UK, and with an aging population there is a requirement for more. Where should they come from, in your view?
Our economy is built on the requirement for an ever-increasing population. We need people to work here, and work their way up, so that they pay taxes, keep the elderly in their pensions, and pay for the services required to run the country.

If migration is "utterly wrong", how do you propose we fix it?

[vetran]

You talk about automation all the time but give no facts. I'd love to hear which 1/3 of none skilled jobs are going to be automated, and see this backed up with numbers from a reputable source.

I have repeatedly posted links from a number of world renowned financial consultancies. The actions of supermarkets (self serve tills), Banks (ATMs), Fast food outlets(self serve Kiosks and automation in the kitchen) are public knowledge. Just think what could be automated?
Deliveries - Uber etc already working on.
Warehouse - Amazon / Ocado already working on it. Ocado's warehouse system is impressive.
Truck driving - Tesla already working on it.
Checkout staff - most supermarkets have implemented.
Dustbins- communal ones being implemented.
Produce picking - plenty already working on it.
Home/aged care - Sony & Amazon already working on it.

Generally if a spotty unskilled 17 year old can do it so can automation.

You also say we need a high wage, high skilled economy ... again, care to explain where the work to meet the needs of the UK working age population is going to come from? If the UK workers were already trained and highly skilled then there would be little need to bring in 1 million Indian skilled workers. So how do you propose we train the millions in the UK who have little education to meet these highly skilled jobs you keep imagining will suddenly appear?

Well that is sort of the point, we need to decide to train them then have time to do it. Alternatively we can have the generation of unemployed miners again that went well.
Strangely the job I do wasn't around 40 years ago and the first 3 careers I had quickly became rare or poorly paid thanks to technology. I changed careers because my family and the government supported that. Jobs evolve and are created to consume the talent available, we need to develop the talent available.

Or will you deflect from answering, as you always do, with an insult because everything you say is made up and not based on reality, but instead some right wing dogma you read somewhere on the inter-web?

OK so who started with the insults? - ah yes you.
Who posted a load of unsubstantiated accusations?- ah yes you.

I wait to be proven wrong

My experience on here is you personally won't have to wait very long to be proven wrong.

[vetran]

Are you daring to suggest that we shouldn't charge UK students to go to university? That will never happen, as no government will ever see the return in its parliamentary lifetime.

Possibly true but apprenticeships are now offering a way to obtain degree qualifications without debt.

We don't have enough trained medical professionals in the UK, and with an aging population there is a requirement for more. Where should they come from, in your view?

Are you suggesting we should steal them from less developed countries as we have been for decades?

Maybe we should look at how we use our medical staff to make them more efficient? We could also start training more so we have enough in two elections time?

Our economy is built on the requirement for an ever-increasing population. We need people to work here, and work their way up, so that they pay taxes, keep the elderly in their pensions, and pay for the services required to run the country.

If migration is "utterly wrong", how do you propose we fix it?

Our economy is built on the top 30% paying most of the tax and since Gordon Bruin the bottom third being on in work benefits. If you change the number of takers the whole thing will fall apart , welcome to a future of automation.

If migration is "utterly wrong", how do you propose we fix it?

Migration isn't wrong, increasing the size of the workers who take out more than they put in is utterly wrong unless you find a way to pay for it. Multiple governments can't even build enough homes (let alone services) for them.

How do you propose to fix that?

[ShandyDrinker]

Are you daring to suggest that we shouldn't charge UK students to go to university? That will never happen, as no government will ever see the return in its parliamentary lifetime.

We don't have enough trained medical professionals in the UK, and with an aging population there is a requirement for more. Where should they come from, in your view?
Our economy is built on the requirement for an ever-increasing population. We need people to work here, and work their way up, so that they pay taxes, keep the elderly in their pensions, and pay for the services required to run the country.

If migration is "utterly wrong", how do you propose we fix it?

To be clear I didn't say migration is utterly wrong. What I said was that allowing children and grandchildren to be undercut, especially on leaving university with massive debts, is utterly wrong.

We have known about the age profile of the population problem for years. It should not have been beyond the wit of politicians to forward plan and ensure we're training sufficient of the right kinds of people, whether doctors, nurses and so on. But no, it's easier to just pinch them from other countries.

I can agree we don't have enough medical professionals hence we must do what is required.

However, in the IT sector, reconcile that people leaving university in the UK with degrees in Computer Science have one of the highest rates of graduate unemployment yet there is permanently a supposed skills shortage.

I propose we fix immigration by having a combination of a points based system and caps. They both go hand in hand. Companies abusing intra-company transfers (such as UK Intra-Company Transfer Visa Scheme Abused According to MAC Report (immigrationlawyers-london.com) should be stopped. This has been going on for years.

[Whorty]

I have repeatedly posted links from a number of world renowned financial consultancies. The actions of supermarkets (self serve tills), Banks (ATMs), Fast food outlets(self serve Kiosks and automation in the kitchen) are public knowledge. Just think what could be automated?
Deliveries - Uber etc already working on.
Warehouse - Amazon / Ocado already working on it. Ocado's warehouse system is impressive.
Truck driving - Tesla already working on it.
Checkout staff - most supermarkets have implemented.
Dustbins- communal ones being implemented.
Produce picking - plenty already working on it.
Home/aged care - Sony & Amazon already working on it.

Generally if a spotty unskilled 17 year old can do it so can automation.

A lot of what you have mentioned above has already happened ... so where is the rest coming from that will remove 1/3 of the current unskilled workforce?

Again, some numbers would be good. Something like, there are x thousand warehouse workers in the UK, and x% will be automated out of a job by 20xx (but given warehouses, certainly the mega companies, are already automated I'm not sure there are many opportunities left there).

You talk vagaries, never any facts to substantiate your claims.

[WTFH]

What I said was that allowing children and grandchildren to be undercut, especially on leaving university with massive debts, is utterly wrong.

And how do we prevent future generations from leaving university with massive debts?

[malvolio]

And how do we prevent future generations from leaving university with massive debts?

Stop demanding 50% go to Uni and put the academically unqualified into apprenticeships or similar vocational training? For example, to become a nurse, first you need a degree in one of a few fairly unrelated academic subjects, none of which include patient care, so you can start a £15k a year job with a £32k debt.