Welcome to Gilead

[vetran]

Did he offer to carry it for 9 months and give birth to it with the risks that both entail?

Remember this - https://www.theguardian.com/society/...mesh-explainer

No because he can't, but he didn't kill it without consulting the other parent either.

You know mesh implantation is a separate thing, you don't get one automatically after having a baby.

[ladymuck]

OK any facts to support your assertions? Again dismissing half the parties based on gender and vague insults is not fair, there should be a law against that!

The abortions I know of personally, the fathers were involved the majority of times, they were neither abusive or uncaring . They were with their girlfriends and partners and whilst they were unhappy at the abortion happening they wished to support their ladies.

oh look someone who is actually trying to change the discussion.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49240582

Try reading what they have to say with an open mind.

It's easy to be unhappy about an abortion when you're not going through it.

[vetran]

Absolutely this.

completely agree, lets encourage education, contraception and heaven forbid abstinence (that should get the religious nutters hot!).

Abortion should be a last resort that is considered very carefully, especially past 12 weeks when its scientifically proven that foetuses feel pain.

[vetran]

It's easy to be unhappy about an abortion when you're not going through it.

I luckily have no direct experience as a father whose partner chose abortion, I have friends who were and it was far from easy in their case 30+ years later it still haunts them. I have dated women who chose to keep the child and who managed to enjoy a decent life.

Its easy to dismiss another persons feelings because you don't understand them and don't wish to validate them.

I have also seen couples go through miscarriages the dad is normally pretty upset about it as well.

[SueEllen]

completely agree, lets encourage education, contraception and heaven forbid abstinence (that should get the religious nutters hot!).

Abortion should be a last resort that is considered very carefully, especially past 12 weeks when its scientifically proven that foetuses feel pain.

I'm sure the Dutch have shown that if you give kids sex and relationship education (with the emphasis on relationships) and wide access to contraceptives children/young adults have their first sexual encounters at a later age.

[SueEllen]

I luckily have no direct experience as a father whose partner chose abortion, I have friends who were and it was far from easy in their case 30+ years later it still haunts them. I have dated women who chose to keep the child and who managed to enjoy a decent life.

Its easy to dismiss another persons feelings because you don't understand them and don't wish to validate them.

I have also seen couples go through miscarriages the dad is normally pretty upset about it as well.

[d000hg]

The dividing line medically is fairly well established, it's whether or not the foetus can sustain life outside the womb, which is 20 weeks. Of course, demonstrating that point in reality is a little difficult...

When they can survive outside the womb is not really a definition of personhood though. Currently the world record is 21 weeks but this obviously changes over time and varies from person to person and depends on the facilities/expertise you have to hand. Some people campaign for (and some nations may already allow, I'm not sure) the right to abort a healthy near-term pregnancy at a point where you explicitly have to kill it to prevent a live birth.
Defining rules based on survivability is going to also give an ever-narrowing window because it's surely conceivable(!) we'll reach a point where pretty much any age pregnancy could be saved via artificial wombs, etc.

So apparently are little children if they aren't baptised - well according to religious nuts.

No, little children are evil either way.

[hugebrain]

That's what happens when children especially teens don't get sex and relationship education.

Also they don't have as such wide access to contraceptives due to access and/or cost as in the UK and most places in Europe.

More likely it’s because Americans are so much better looking.

[d000hg]

What role does a man have in abortion that isn't to tell a woman how she is feeling about having an unwanted pregnancy? Sadly, for most women having to consider an abortion their lived experience is that the man is not interested or has a vested interest that is not safe for the woman.

Domestic abuse from men withholding contraception and access to abortions, because by keeping wifey pregnant/looking after young children, she's less likely to leave. He doesn't care about the child or the woman but his needs must be considered!

Men who rape women, be they strangers or relatives. They don't care but their needs must be considered!

Most men have absolutely no concept the toll a pregnancy, wanted or otherwise, has on a woman's mind and body yet they feel they are 100% qualified to have their say and to impose their will.

If you truly cared then you would support the woman's decision not tell her what to do.

What % of abortions are from pregnancies due to rape or abuse Sue? You can't generalise the argument based on edge cases.

Most men aren't aware the toll caring for a baby has on a single woman's mind and body but yes, we are 100% qualified to have our say that they shouldn't kill the baby. Neither of us is attracted to small children and cannot really understand the toll that takes on a pedophile who struggles with their desires, but we both feel 100% qualified to have our say that it is wrong for them to abuse a child.

[SueEllen]

What % of abortions are from pregnancies due to rape or abuse Sue? You can't generalise the argument based on edge cases.

Those weren't my arguments.

My arguments are on:

• women who miscarry. They aren't allowed to have D&C or any other surgery if there is a heart beat. Like the case of Savita Halappanavar in Ireland and this recent case - https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSt...abort-85635929 Reading more the ethnic/racial disparities around healthcare in the US mean that more non-white women are going to die in pregnancy. (I already know about them in the UK.)
• Those who have have genetic testing and find that their child isn't compatible with life. All genetic testing takes place after the pregnancy is know to be viable.
• Those who have cancer, any other life threatening condition or serious injury. They aren't allowed to have treatment that risks the pregnancy until the baby is born and it may be too late afterwards.

Btw miscarriage isn't an edge case it is very common. 1 in 8 pregnancies according to the NHS.

Most men aren't aware the toll caring for a baby has on a single woman's mind and body but yes, we are 100% qualified to have our say that they shouldn't kill the baby.

No because it just isn't the child's life you are talking about you are talking about, particularly in the US and UK about women of colour's, but in fact any women's right to life and right not to have life changing injuries.

You are basically stating you have a right to kill me over a non-viable pregnancy.