P&O Ferries goes under (or not)

[SueEllen]

This isn't about whether one group of developing world employees are better or not than the UK ones they are replacing. It's about the fact that a company has just sacked 800 UK workers, presumably on at least half reasonable wages, and replaced them with people earning £2.60 an hour. Yes, there are some vagaries of maritime law that apparently mean this is possible within the law, but it is notable that not a single EU staff member was sacked whilst the entire UK work force was let go. Why is that, does anybody know? (genuine question, btw). Is this a Brexit win (for business) or would this have been possible when we were still in the EU? It is my view that if your business can only survive when paying 1/4 of the minimum wage to its workers that you don't have a viable business in the UK.

It's our, as in the UK, employment law and could have happened if we were in the EU.

There is a loophole in UK law that allows fire and rehire to change an entire workforce's contracts. It happened recently at BA and British Gas.

Companies can also just make people "redundant" , paying them off and paying fines if a government body decides to take action against them. Larger businesses just factor in the fines into their cost of doing business in the UK. (You will actually know people who have had fake redundancies - just talk to people you know who have left companies over 5 years ago as while they may have been gagged the #metoo movement means at least women are more open in talking about it.)

[vetran]

It's our, as in the UK, employment law and could have happened if we were in the EU.

There is a loophole in UK law that allows fire and rehire to change an entire workforce's contracts. It happened recently at BA and British Gas.

Companies can also just make people "redundant" , paying them off and paying fines if a government body decides to take action against them. Larger businesses just factor in the fines into their cost of doing business in the UK. (You will actually know people who have had fake redundancies - just talk to people you know who have left companies over 5 years ago as while they may have been gagged the #metoo movement means at least women are more open in talking about it.)

Yep it happens - here is a load of lies about your performance, here is your minimal redundancy, here is your NDA sign it or otherwise we fire you and you can take us to court if you want.

Luckily I couldn't wait to see the back of one lot. Lovely people - Terrible bosses.

[Paddy]

This isn't about whether one group of developing world employees are better or not than the UK ones they are replacing. It's about the fact that a company has just sacked 800 UK workers, presumably on at least half reasonable wages, and replaced them with people earning £2.60 an hour. Yes, there are some vagaries of maritime law that apparently mean this is possible within the law, but it is notable that not a single EU staff member was sacked whilst the entire UK work force was let go. Why is that, does anybody know? (genuine question, btw). Is this a Brexit win (for business) or would this have been possible when we were still in the EU? It is my view that if your business can only survive when paying 1/4 of the minimum wage to its workers that you don't have a viable business in the UK.

Maritime law allows foreign seamen to embark and disembark at the start and end of voyages. It does not give them rights to live in the foreign port. The law was designed for long haul ships, not short sea route ferries. eg Fly out and join the ship. P&O used to have a one week on one week off shift, IMHO, it would be illegal to send the foreign seamen ashore between shifts.

[vetran]

Lots of stereotyping there.

Guess you have been reading - Britannia Unchained: Global Lessons for Growth and Prosperity.

Oddly the even the right of centre media thought it was tulip. Then again they probably all baby boomers....

No its just obvious that people who constructed temples of great grandeur while we put a few stones in a circle are probably worth respect. Just because they are cheap doesn't mean they are bad at their job.

I see other countries quite rightly as competitors one needs to be realistic about their capabilities. We were on top of the world and enjoying the pleasures that are part of it. India, Africa and China were all there historically. We are starting to wane we need to be realistic and decide what place in the world we can retain so we don't end up as a failed country and our children experience starvation.

We do need to deal with the real issues departing jobs, Crime, Automation, healthcare costs.

[mattster]

Maritime law allows foreign seamen to embark and disembark at the start and end of voyages. It does not give them rights to live in the foreign port. The law was designed for long haul ships, not short sea route ferries. eg Fly out and join the ship. P&O used to have a one week on one week off shift, IMHO, it would be illegal to send the foreign seamen ashore between shifts.

Sounds like a pretty grim prospect for these new workers. Where are they coming from? presumably they'll be flown over and put on the ship, where they'll effectively have zero rights, no chance to disembark and I would have thought minimal chance of deciding they don't want to do it any more since how would they afford the flight home? Practically modern day slavery - grim. Not far off the model P&Os owners use for migrant labour in their own country.

[SueEllen]

Sounds like a pretty grim prospect for these new workers. Where are they coming from? presumably they'll be flown over and put on the ship, where they'll effectively have zero rights, no chance to disembark and I would have thought minimal chance of deciding they don't want to do it any more since how would they afford the flight home? Practically modern day slavery - grim. Not far off the model P&Os owners use for migrant labour in their own country.

Already happens on cruise ships and larger fishing boats.

[d000hg]

So when you're working on a ship and it goes into international waters, which laws apply in terms of workers' rights and so on?

[northernladuk]

So when you're working on a ship and it goes into international waters, which laws apply in terms of workers' rights and so on?

It's where you are contracted to, just like a contractor travelling to a client abroad. Your contract is with head office or some similar legal entity. Where you are in the world makes no difference, you are effectively travelling on business.

[SimonMac]

So when you're working on a ship and it goes into international waters, which laws apply in terms of workers' rights and so on?

Usually where the ship is registered and under which flag it’s sailing

[northernladuk]

Sounds like a pretty grim prospect for these new workers. Where are they coming from? presumably they'll be flown over and put on the ship, where they'll effectively have zero rights, no chance to disembark and I would have thought minimal chance of deciding they don't want to do it any more since how would they afford the flight home? Practically modern day slavery - grim. Not far off the model P&Os owners use for migrant labour in their own country.

Yep. It's a very thankless task doing low level jobs on ships. If you get fired you'll also get kicked off the boat where ever it is in the world and have to make your own way home as well. It can be good money if you can see it through but it's grim working on board and very little in the way of care and benefits.