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That's a bit unpleasant

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    That's a bit unpleasant

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58334745

    Under orthodox Jewish law, the husband must grant his wife a document called a "get" in Hebrew. Without this, worshippers believe she remains married to him even if they are legally divorced. The women stuck in these religious marriages are known as Agunot, or "chained wives".

    This is definitely not on, they wonder why sensible people oppose religious courts having any power.

    An amendment to the statutory guidance under the Domestic Abuse Act now says that withholding a get can be a form of domestic abuse. If it is deemed controlling or coercive behaviour, the man could be charged and, if found guilty, imprisoned.

    Ministers hope the change will give women more power to complain to the authorities about their former partners for not granting a religious divorce.

    But the Federation of Synagogues, a group representing orthodox Jews, says any get "given under duress, whether due to physical threats, financial threats or the threat of imprisonment, is absolutely invalid" under Jewish law.

    "The couple would remain married to one another, notwithstanding the granting of a get," it said in a letter.

    The federation added that any woman using the provisions of the Domestic Abuse Act will have "tied... the hands" of the Jewish court, as "clearly the husband in such a situation will be acting under duress".
    "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

    I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

    #2
    It's one thing to have religious tolerance but when it comes up against a secular state all sorts kicks off.

    The trouble is that some laws are enacted that are clearly religious persecution and there are others which simply run contrary to the doctrine and practice of a religion. The devout will see any attempt to curtail their practices as persecution.

    I suspect this will be tested in court, probably under something to do with Human Rights, and the women affected will no doubt remain worse off.

    Comment


      #3
      Laws against this should definitely be enforced. The state refrains from taking action against various awful religious practices as they would be termed anti-semitic Islamophobic etc. Inhumane slaughter of animals and circumcision of infants without good medical reason should also be banned in my view.
      bloggoth

      If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'
      John Wayne (My guru, not to be confused with my beloved prophet Jeremy Clarkson)

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by vetran View Post
        https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58334745
        This is definitely not on, they wonder why sensible people oppose religious courts having any power.
        The religious courts have no legal power. They only power they have is force of custom and tradition. I don't see a way of curbing that. There's nothing legally stopping these women remarry except that they'd be shunned/excommunicated... I can't see how you can legislate against that. As with Sharia courts, you can only be bound by it if you allow it. Of course the pressure applied to conform can be enormous - and even life threatening.


        Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

        Comment


          #5
          I really don't like these discussions about someone elses faiths and rules when we have absolutely nothing but an article to go on. There are different levels of Judaism with some of them being more progressive than Christian society. They voted for same sex marriage in US way before any other western cultures took it on and their ancient texts actually mention same sex couples where nearly every other one banned it as a sin and all sorts. We just don't know the bigger picture.

          I'm not saying there aren't women suffering because of it but we've plenty of women suffering because of our own laws. We've gay people being persecuted by the church in the same society that is judging this aspect off one article. Even getting re-married within a strict catholic society is a problem. There are priests that won't do it still. We aren't exactly shining examples to then judge a very small aspect of someone elses faith.

          Something must be done to help these women but demonising the whole Jewish faith isn't the answer. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't care, I just think we don't have a clear picture of what is going on. We are talking Orthodox or Ultra Orthodox here and they can't do the things the lady wants because of the Orthodox community. They can remarry and do all the things they want if they it they weren't part of the orthodox communicty. All other communities in Judism don't recognize interfaith marriages either but 1 in 4 jewish people are in an interfaith marriage so it's possible with either relaxing of the laws or them having to not be so involved in the community.

          I think the one paragraph explaining the GET is so simple it's bordering on misleading. If you read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_(divorce_document) it explains the women are also complicit in the GET process and it does explain there are ways out and and that the men can be spurned by the community for not doing it. There is the possibility that people are the problem here, not the Orthodox rules.

          She also can't do those things if she wants to stay within the Orthodox community so putting contraints on themselves. There are ways out and she can have all the things she wants, it just means not staying in the Orthodox community. It's a tough call I get it, but I don't think the article is very clear.

          A lot needs doing on all sides and these women (and as per the wiki page) some men are in awful positions and need help but I really think just making a judgement from one article isn't the way.
          'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

          Comment


            #6
            Orthodox Jews can get a bit touchy only last week I was waiting for a bus at Golders Green and I asked one "What time is the bus due?" and he gave me a dirty look.
            "A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices," George Orwell

            Comment


              #7
              Feels like a non-story. Legally she can get divorced within British law. If, however, she wants to stay in the community then she has to follow the customs of that society. She has a choice ... she can leave the society but she chooses not to. It feels to me like all those 'stuck' in this situation who just sit there and accept it are complicit in these customs ongoing.

              We're in a secular, multi-cultural society, and as such we all have options open to us.
              I am what I drink, and I'm a bitter man

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                I really don't like these discussions about someone elses faiths and rules when we have absolutely nothing but an article to go on. There are different levels of Judaism with some of them being more progressive than Christian society. They voted for same sex marriage in US way before any other western cultures took it on and their ancient texts actually mention same sex couples where nearly every other one banned it as a sin and all sorts. We just don't know the bigger picture.

                I'm not saying there aren't women suffering because of it but we've plenty of women suffering because of our own laws. We've gay people being persecuted by the church in the same society that is judging this aspect off one article. Even getting re-married within a strict catholic society is a problem. There are priests that won't do it still. We aren't exactly shining examples to then judge a very small aspect of someone elses faith.

                Something must be done to help these women but demonising the whole Jewish faith isn't the answer. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't care, I just think we don't have a clear picture of what is going on. We are talking Orthodox or Ultra Orthodox here and they can't do the things the lady wants because of the Orthodox community. They can remarry and do all the things they want if they it they weren't part of the orthodox communicty. All other communities in Judism don't recognize interfaith marriages either but 1 in 4 jewish people are in an interfaith marriage so it's possible with either relaxing of the laws or them having to not be so involved in the community.

                I think the one paragraph explaining the GET is so simple it's bordering on misleading. If you read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_(divorce_document) it explains the women are also complicit in the GET process and it does explain there are ways out and and that the men can be spurned by the community for not doing it. There is the possibility that people are the problem here, not the Orthodox rules.

                She also can't do those things if she wants to stay within the Orthodox community so putting contraints on themselves. There are ways out and she can have all the things she wants, it just means not staying in the Orthodox community. It's a tough call I get it, but I don't think the article is very clear.

                A lot needs doing on all sides and these women (and as per the wiki page) some men are in awful positions and need help but I really think just making a judgement from one article isn't the way.
                That post is a bit too balanced & tolerant for General!

                but I agree
                Growing old is mandatory
                Growing up is optional

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm not demonising the whole Jewish faith I am pointing out in this case the faith believes it is above the law. I wasn't aware of this, it is similar to some sexist aspects of sharia laws and should be overruled.


                  If the husband refuses the religious divorce the wife suffers. Now under equality act both genders should have the same opportunities. If the wife quite reasonably argues in a court of law it is coercive then if the faith believes it knows better then it should be told it doesn't.

                  From your link

                  The laws of gittin only provide for a divorce initiated by the husband. However, the wife has the right to sue for divorce in a rabbinical court. The court, if finding just cause as prescribed in very rare cases in Jewish law, will require the husband to divorce his wife.
                  The law of the land should respect but where needed override faith based customs for the good of its people.

                  As mentioned the church is abusing gays, they are told legally they may not make this discriminatory in most cases. They are luckily changing.
                  "If you didn't do anything that wasn't good for you it would be a very dull life. What are you gonna do? Everything that is pleasant in life is dangerous."

                  I want to see the hand of history on his collar.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The religious consider their laws above the law of the land. The law of the land already overrides religious law. The problem is the religious don't accept that.

                    Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

                    Comment

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