More

[eek]

RoS - yes but remains to be seen whether it would ever be practical to use I will admit.

D&C - borderline

Moo - Not exactly. Client does not tell me what to do on a daily basis. Yes they will ask me to focus on things but then they leave me alone to decide whats the best.

Moo means you arrive in the office and they find you something to do.... You example there is more D&C than Mutual obligation...

[northernladuk]

RoS - yes but remains to be seen whether it would ever be practical to use I will admit.

D&C - borderline

Moo - Not exactly. Client does not tell me what to do on a daily basis. Yes they will ask me to focus on things but then they leave me alone to decide whats the best.

But this is the problem PC. You yourself say borderline. Even with people that think they are slam dunk inside there is a big argument and a length investigation. You saying your are borderline means HMRC will see you bang inside. As. Soon as D&C is proven at any level then you are done. Not borderline, might be, a little bit. It's proven and HMRC have a massive upper hand.

We see just the facts you post without trying to sugar coat it. I think it's a pretty good assumption that your are pretty much inside if you think you are borderline.

Not understand MoO properly and doing a mix of BAU adds to this assumption.

[northernladyuk]

But this is the problem PC. You yourself say borderline. Even with people that think they are slam dunk inside there is a big argument and a length investigation. You saying your are borderline means HMRC will see you bang inside. As. Soon as D&C is proven at any level then you are done. Not borderline, might be, a little bit. It's proven and HMRC have a massive upper hand.

We see just the facts you post without trying to sugar coat it. I think it's a pretty good assumption that your are pretty much inside if you think you are borderline.

Not understand MoO properly and doing a mix of BAU adds to this assumption.

Agreed. And the whole 'support work' adds to this.

Client: Support task x needs doing.
Contractor: (thinks: Very well, I am making a business decision for MyCo to accept this piece of work and will add this to a revised Statement of Works, but we will conduct it in the way we feel best, while remaining in alignment with client standards, and reserving the right to send a sub) Yes, Boss, right away Boss!

[vetran]

But this is the problem PC. You yourself say borderline. Even with people that think they are slam dunk inside there is a big argument and a length investigation. You saying your are borderline means HMRC will see you bang inside. As. Soon as D&C is proven at any level then you are done. Not borderline, might be, a little bit. It's proven and HMRC have a massive upper hand.

We see just the facts you post without trying to sugar coat it. I think it's a pretty good assumption that your are pretty much inside if you think you are borderline.

Not understand MoO properly and doing a mix of BAU adds to this assumption.

ok on the way home tonight you are stopped by the police & they believe you are speeding, you are sure you were not. They take you to court on the basis of their opinion and the police lose because the Judge says sorry you didn't use a radar gun or any other empirical measure. Now are you a filthy cat murdering speeder or innocent?

The law is purposely vague it has a terrible conviction rate but they collect money based on the fear of it. This is supposed to be fair & reasonable? Most sensible people would see this as extortion.

[northernladuk]

ok on the way home tonight you are stopped by the police & they believe you are speeding, you are sure you were not. They take you to court on the basis of their opinion and the police lose because the Judge says sorry you didn't use a radar gun or any other empirical measure. Now are you a filthy cat murdering speeder or innocent?

The law is purposely vague it has a terrible conviction rate but they collect money based on the fear of it. This is supposed to be fair & reasonable? Most sensible people would see this as extortion.

Not really. D&C is one of the main pillars of IR35 and the measure is applied in all the IR35 cases I've seen. A better analogy would be driving along at borderline 30mph. Radar gun catches you at 33. You believe to be borderline but the tools applied will say not.

[northernladyuk]

ok on the way home tonight you are stopped by the police & they believe you are speeding, you are sure you were not. They take you to court on the basis of their opinion and the police lose because the Judge says sorry you didn't use a radar gun or any other empirical measure. Now are you a filthy cat murdering speeder or innocent?

The law is purposely vague it has a terrible conviction rate but they collect money based on the fear of it. This is supposed to be fair & reasonable? Most sensible people would see this as extortion.

What if you turn up and mumble in court that it seems very borderline to you, show your courier delivery contract that says you must drive at at least the speed limit, your client / employer turns up with the package collection and drop off time records that show your average speed was in excess of the speed limit, and your Back to Work Adviser gives a statement that you also broke the journey to sign on as well? Hypothetically of course.

[SueEllen]

RoS - yes but remains to be seen whether it would ever be practical to use I will admit.

D&C - borderline

Moo - Not exactly. Client does not tell me what to do on a daily basis. Yes they will ask me to focus on things but then they leave me alone to decide whats the best.

Do a bit more research.

Even HMRC has admitted in the past that employed skilled workers have some leeway in D&C.

For example a property management company employes a plumber. The employer tells the plumber there is a sink to fit in property A and a broken tap to fix in property B but they need to do both jobs today. The company doesn't tell the plumber in what order to do the jobs and how to do them.

In regards to MoO if it's not within your agreed project scope why are you doing the work? If there is no work for you to do then you shouldn't be doing it unless you both explicitly agree an extension to your services. Yes you may have to go home for half a day or a couple of days without invoicing but it helps any IR35 defence you may need.

[northernladyuk]

Do a bit more research.

Even HMRC has admitted in the past that employed skilled workers have some leeway in D&C.

For example a property management company employes a plumber. The employer tells the plumber there is a sink to fit in property A and a broken tap to fix in property B but they need to do both jobs today. The company doesn't tell the plumber in what order to do the jobs and how to do them.

In regards to MoO if it's not within your agreed project scope why are you doing the work? If there is no work for you to do then you shouldn't be doing it unless you both explicitly agree an extension to your services. Yes you may have to go home for half a day or a couple of days without invoicing but it helps any IR35 defence you may need.

Come on, Sue Ellen, you know the answer to that one.

[pr1]

1/1000 chance of investigation
3/1503 chance of losing it
=1/501,000 chance of being proven inside

£0 penalties as you have an approved contract
Only risk is interest on the tax you "should" have paid anyway if you're proven inside

I'd take that bet

[northernladyuk]

1/1000 chance of investigation
3/1503 chance of losing it
=1/501,000 chance of being proven inside

£0 penalties as you have an approved contract
Only risk is interest on the tax you "should" have paid anyway if you're proven inside

I'd take that bet

Agreed that it is one of the safest forms of tax evasion.