EU Referendum: Do we enough information to take the correct decision?

[VectraMan]

This is a gross over-simplification and entirely misses the point (it's inaccurate too, as the Commission has the legislative initiative, although the Parliament can ask for a proposal to be submitted by the Commission). There's a tendency on both sides of this argument to suspend rational thought for an Aunt Sally, but particularly the Bremainers. The argument isn't that the process is entirely undemocratic, only that it is insufficiently democratic. The Commission proposes new legislation for adoption by the Parliament, it doesn't come from MEPs. In accepting (or rejecting) that legislation, our MEPs have only a very diluted level of control.

What happens in the UK? The government proposes legislation; it doesn't come from MPs (apart from private members bills which rarely succeed). In accepting or rejecting that legislation our MPs only have a very diluted level of control. On top of that as long as the whips can keep everyone in line the government almost certainly wins despite only having support of a minority of the electorate, unless the entirely unelected House of Lords decide to get in the way. Nobody else can really stand up to the government except the one 90 year old woman who has the power to bring down the whole shebang.

Democracy is weakened when significant legislation becomes too removed from the ability of national parliaments (and, hence, national peoples) to accept, reject, or modify it.

I can understand why people don't like the idea that the UK has to follow decisions made by the majority, but a minority having to bend to the will of the majority is exactly what democracy is. You might think it's wrong to give up some sovereignty, but you can't call it undemocratic.

[LondonManc]

I can understand why people don't like the idea that the UK has to follow decisions made by the majority, but a minority having to bend to the will of the majority is exactly what democracy is. You might think it's wrong to give up some sovereignty, but you can't call it undemocratic.

Would it be undemocratic for the rest of Europe to dictate to us that we should drive on the right?

[minestrone]

The EU has forced out 2 democratically elected governments and replaced them with unelected technocrats of their choosing.

The opinion that the EU is not undemocratic is completely ludicrous.

[jamesbrown]

What happens in the UK?

The Gov't does not propose legislation in a vacuum, it consults with its backbenchers from whom the initiative quite frequently originates, separately from the formal process of a PMB. You'll note that PMBs frequently influence legislation, even though they are rarely adopted. Crucially, our legislative process provides for several formal stages of scrutiny and amendment. Those changes are frequently very substantial. When legislation is controversial and the legislative process identifies significant amendments that are not accepted by Gov't, the bill may be rejected. More commonly, the Gov't is forced to U-turn without a vote, as you'll have noticed many times in recent weeks. Finally, it is our elected constituency MPs (whether inside Gov't or outside) that control this process. If we don't like what they're doing, we can vote them out. This is absolutely critical. The strength of democracy is directly proportional to the proximity between the voters and the legislative process.

My view is that a tiny minority of legislation needs to be within the remit of the EU institutions, specifically those transboundary issues that cannot be legislated effectively at a national scale. This is fine. I have absolutely no problem with intergovernmental cooperation, including within the context of a European Union of some kind. I object to what the EU has become, in practice, not the principle of cooperation. The EU is increasingly intervening in areas that are squarely within the remit of national parliaments, and the direction of travel is one way. This is democracy-light.

you can't call it undemocratic.

You'll note that I explicitly did not call it undemocratic, only democracy-light. However, minestrone makes a good point above.

[VectraMan]

The EU has forced out 2 democratically elected governments and replaced them with unelected technocrats of their choosing.

The opinion that the EU is not undemocratic is completely ludicrous.

How many governments has Britain overthrown over the centuries?

I'm not going to excuse what you say, but the EU would never allow a member that wasn't a democracy.

[jamesbrown]

From the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament.

[darmstadt]

How many governments has Britain overthrown over the centuries?

I'm not going to excuse what you say, but the EU would never allow a member that wasn't a democracy.

Maybe that's why the UK is going for the Brexit because with some of the new laws that the Tories want to bring in, it might not be a democracy for much longer...

[darmstadt]

From the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament.

Brexit quote from Winston Churchill said in Parliament in 1953:

“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

Was actually written by him 30 years earlier for the Saturday Evening Post in the USA in an article entitled 'United States of Europe' where he also stated:

“Everywhere, in every age, in every area however wide, our every grouping of peoples however diverse, unity has made for strength and prosperity for all within its circle. Why should Europe fear unity?”

The same chap also said in 1942:

‘Hard as it is to say now.. I look forward to a United States of Europe, in which the barriers between the nations will be greatly minimised and unrestricted travel will be possible.’

And again in 1946:

‘We must build a kind of United States of Europe.. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important.. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can.’

And so on and on. I think he's rolling in his grave and the way Brexit'ers are misappropriating him...

[LondonManc]

Brexit quote from Winston Churchill said in Parliament in 1953:



Was actually written by him 30 years earlier for the Saturday Evening Post in the USA in an article entitled 'United States of Europe' where he also stated:



The same chap also said in 1942:



And again in 1946:



And so on and on. I think he's rolling in his grave and the way Brexit'ers are misappropriating him...

He thought it was a nice idea early on then realised what a bunch of shirt fronts you all are. HTHBIDI

[OwlHoot]

2016-05-16 Cerberus: The Queen shouldn’t waste her time on the Speech. Brexit consumes all in its path

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Yet, despite all the heavy artillery lined up on the Remain side, the polls are not moving. Remain and Leave are locked together. No amount of hard pounding has budged the 45 per cent of the country who have taken a close look at Europe and decided they don’t like it.

* They don’t like their schools and hospitals being inundated with EU newcomers,

* they don't like being unable to get an appointment with their GP,

* they don’t like the way the character of neighbourhoods has been changed irrevocably by immigration,

* they don’t like their country disappearing before their eyes,

* they don’t like wages being crushed,

* they don’t like being unable to find a house,

* they don’t like the economic timebomb that is the Eurozone sitting on their doorstep and threatening to blow them away,

* they don’t like the loss of control of our borders and the evident fairly free movement of terrorists from the Middle East,

* they don’t like Brussels’s contempt for nationhood and democracy,

* they don’t like the outrageous waste of taxpayer’s money fuelling the whole ghastly circus.

Turn the question around. Would you want to join the EU? Clearly not. So why would you want to stay?

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