Ken Livingstone

[NotAllThere]

Terrorism is just another word for freedom fighting.

I hate that saying!

So do I. It's because it's bollocks. It's entirely possible to be a freedom fighter and not a terrorist. It's entirely possible to be a terrorist and not a freedom fighter. It's entirely possible to be a freedom fighter and a terrorist at the same time. For completion, it's entirely possible to be neither a freedom fighter nor a terrorist.

Similarly anti-Zionism is not another word for anti-Semitism. Except possibly all anti-Semites are also anti-Zionists. Plenty of people who call themselves anti-Zionists are Jew haters.

[LondonManc]

I think it's quite clear in this case. If anybody has a moral compass then it's quite obvious. Israel have one of the most powerful military forces in the world. The Palestinians have some AK47s and home made pipe bombs. If terrorism is trying to force a violent oppressive state into giving you some rights (like fishing more than 200m off the beach!) then every act of violence against an oppressive state is terrorism.... think back in history and you are going to include pretty much everybody into that - anybody decent that is.

The problem is everybody uses terrorism as a card to justify their actions. Why not say it how it is? Israelis have been oppressing the Palestinians for decades. They have lost a lot more than Israel has and have nothing. What do you expect?

That links in with them bringing AK47s to a tank battle. Russia haven't been fighting the proxy war in Palestine/Israel for some time (as they used to when they helped Egypt and Syria, for example, in the Yom Kippur War. That's what happens when one side is still getting help and the other isn't.

While there's mutual distrust, strong Israeli military force and a general Arab desire to destroy Israel, there's a bit of an impasse in place.

[sasguru]

Actually there was something called the arab spring

Don't be a blinkered fool.
Have you seen how that turned out, especially in Egypt...and why was it necessary to have a "spring" in the first place?
Isn't it a fact that whenever a strongman is removed in any Arab state it descends into chaos?
I completely disagree with the Iraq war because it removed Saddam.
Also with intervening in Libya because it removed Gaddafi.
Fact is with those guys in it was all a lot more stable.
But democratic they were not.

[Mordac]

You should start a career in deflecting people from the point.

Either have some point worth discussing or go and find some fools who operate at your own low intellectual capacity.

Try studying the history of the Middle East and then come back to me on that one. I'd chuck in an insult, but it would appear I'd then have to explain it, and I really can't be arsed...

[Churchill]

What's Churchill's view on this?

AtW in "SupremeSpod" mode!

[darmstadt]

Livingstone quite often represents all that is bad about the Labour party but maybe, just maybe he was right in an oblique way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

[AtW]

Are you gonna bark all day little doggy or are you gonna bite?

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

Don't be a blinkered fool.
Have you seen how that turned out, especially in Egypt...and why was it necessary to have a "spring" in the first place?
Isn't it a fact that whenever a strongman is removed in any Arab state it descends into chaos?
I completely disagree with the Iraq war because it removed Saddam.
Also with intervening in Libya because it removed Gaddafi.
Fact is with those guys in it was all a lot more stable.
But democratic they were not.

I'd not expect that from an old, experienced SAS programmer.... I thought you were better than that.

This is what the media and the politicians want us to believe - the Muslims can't rule themselves, they are incapable. Talk about stereotyping and racism. Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey, Malaysia, Tunisia, Morocco. Some examples of functioning democracies. Iraq can't be blamed on the Iraqis - It has been plundered and raped non step by the west and their puppet allies (who they installed initially).

The systems that are being forced upon these lands is a western form of democracy. Democracy works but it needs to be adapted to the environment it is in.

[SueEllen]

Livingstone quite often represents all that is bad about the Labour party but maybe, just maybe he was right in an oblique way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

Livingstone is more knowledgeable than he looks and sounds.

Anyway I knew the world was mad when I was 16 - I found I was related to a Muslim who thinks the Palestinians have no right to be in Israel, and also related to a Jew who thinks modern Israel should not exist....

[saptastic]

Hamas don't have the means to orchestrate a military operation against the Israeli military..... They can barely launch a rocket in that direction.

At least you are starting to admit that Israel are at least as bad as Hamas. It's a start.

Disagree.
If Hamas put down their arms there would be peace, If Israel did it they would be destroyed within days.
There are a high population of Arabs and Muslims that live in Israel without any problems.
Hamas openly state and also educate - that Jewish children are legitimate targets.
And send thousands of rockets discriminatory into Israel. Don't be an apologist for Hamas.
Unfortunately whatever the plight of the Palestinians and where the fault lies - it is made significantly worse by Hamas.