Junior doctors

[darmstadt]

The exodus of junior doctors from the UK to other countries has been steadily increasing over the last few years, I suspect now that it will get even greater. Do junior doctors earn over 35,000 so that the new pending immigration laws will not stop the NHS from getting more foreign doctors? And once there's a Brexit, don't expect any with white faces either which should please disgusted of Tunbridge Wells

In fact a good example of emigrating doctors is thatTory MP and chairwoman of the Commons Health Select Committee Sarah Wollaston revealed that: Sarah Wollaston Reveals Her Daughter And 8 Of Her Doctor Friends Have Quit NHS For Australia

[DaveB]

The doctor supply is partly controlled by the BMA, using an effective closed shop and restrictive practices, which allows the charging of extremely high prices. Junior doctors are trained by senior doctors. If the seniors were paid less the training would be cheaper. The BMA could also improve the supply of doctors by encouraging more doctors to train, or by being less greedy in their pay negotiations with the government, or by allowing more flexible practices, or by other means. For example, the NHS could pay specialists and GPs less, in order to give juniors a bigger slice. But any reform or change of this kind is routinely opposed by the BMA. (As an aside, I also think it is wrong to "steal" doctors from places like Tanzania where they are probably needed more).

Under Blair, poor government negotiation gave doctors a huge pay rise while actually reducing out-of-hours care. The BMA stitched up the government/NHS into a contract highly favourable to senior doctors, and unfavourable to patients and everyone else. Perhaps the junior doctors should ask what role the BMA plays in them getting such a small slice of the pie, (if that is how they see 37k per year) and vote with their feet.

Re the first paragraph. No.

The supply of new doctors is limited by the number of places available in medical schools. These are not taught by consultants or registrars. The BMA has no influence on the number of places available. In fact they have campaigned for more places to be made available.

All Medical Schools in the UK are state funded. The government sets the number of places available.

In 2014 there were 84850 applications for a place at medical school. Of these 6820 gained a place.

For once the Daily Mail actually said something vaguely reasonable on the subject (although this was back in 2013 and you have to allow for the foam-at-the-mouth factor.).

Straight-A students forced abroad to study medicine as NHS recruits record foreign doctors | Daily Mail Online

[SueEllen]

The doctor supply is partly controlled by the BMA, using an effective closed shop and restrictive practices, which allows the charging of extremely high prices. Junior doctors are trained by senior doctors. If the seniors were paid less the training would be cheaper. The BMA could also improve the supply of doctors by encouraging more doctors to train, or by being less greedy in their pay negotiations with the government, or by allowing more flexible practices, or by other means. For example, the NHS could pay specialists and GPs less, in order to give juniors a bigger slice. But any reform or change of this kind is routinely opposed by the BMA. (As an aside, I also think it is wrong to "steal" doctors from places like Tanzania where they are probably needed more).

Under Blair, poor government negotiation gave doctors a huge pay rise while actually reducing out-of-hours care. The BMA stitched up the government/NHS into a contract highly favourable to senior doctors, and unfavourable to patients and everyone else. Perhaps the junior doctors should ask what role the BMA plays in them getting such a small slice of the pie, (if that is how they see 37k per year) and vote with their feet.

The first paragraph has been answered.

In regards to the second I think you are mixing up GPs with hospital doctors.

The Blair government realised no-one wanted to be a GP due to the poor pay of GP partners in comparison to a hospital consultants so increased the pay as a way of attracting more GPs particularly trainees.

The negotiations went wrong because they didn't realise that while some GPs when they are on-call don't get a lot of call outs, while others get loads. So when they offered GPs the right to opt-out completely of on-calls for a salary reduction and they all took it. After all if you are suppose to work all night/have your sleep interrupted and have to work a full day the next day or can opt-out of it for a salary sacrifice, you may as well opt-out. (If you have done work in the public sector you will realise how completely tulip most of the civil servants dealing with contract negotiations are. Those who are any good quickly move to the private sector or a more senior role. )

The GPs earning the large "salaries" are GP partners. (However even that's been cut.) GP partners are self-employed and are responsible for hiring and paying the other staff in the practice, renting the practice building etc. They are then reimbursed by the NHS for providing these services. (I switched off when I was told all the stuff they had to sort out as it sounded like running a normal business apart from how they are reimbursed.) I've been told the number of partnerships has gone down and most practices just want salaried GPs. If you are a salaried GP you don't have a financial stake in the practice so you may as well work part-time if you will have a better life. If however you are experienced but don't want a partnership or can't get one you may as well work as a locum GP as you earn more money, can work in different practises and don't have to work full-time but also have less responsible and stress.

In regards to flexible practises I pointed out my GP has a multi-surgery practice which is open long hours in the week and on Saturdays. This means the GPs work different time slots and often have to drive from one practice to another during the day. Being London and due to the locations of the practices taking public transport wouldn't be any quicker as they would have take buses. In regards to out of hours care - I don't live far from an A&E and when neighbours etc have been emergencies I've driven them to the A&E where they are seen immediately because they are actual emergencies.

[unixman]

As I say, I don't particularly condemn the Junior doctors actions, but I don't have any sympathy for their case either. Doctors as a whole are, after a few years of on-the-job training, some of the wealthiest people in society. The disastrous contract agreed under the Blair govt. destroyed out of hours GP services and turned some doctors (just a few) into millionaires.

Specialist hospital doctors are also not short of a few bob, especially those who take on private work in addition to their NHS duties, or go off payroll and charge by the day. All this plus the whopping public sector pension and assured job security (not the day-raters I guess). And the BMA is there to make sure the position continues, by opposing every reform and promoting doctors' interests at evey negotiation.

So no I don't particularly support the junior docs case, because their futures are likely to be financially very comfortable if not downright lucrative, and the profession as a whole seems to be drowning in money. So they can put up with 37k and long hours for a bit.


Just got my own pension statement BTW. If I retire now it will pay me 4.5k per annum. I'm 48. Any 48 year old doctor like to declare what their pension is?

[darmstadt]

Jeremy Hunt really doesn't give a tulip about junior doctors or the rest of the NHS, maybe people should read his rather fantastic book which he co-authored with the now (in)famous kipper Carswell: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Direct-Democ.../dp/0955059801 with some information about it here: The Green Benches: Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book calling for the NHS to be dismantled (including a free download apparently) However I believe this book is more consistent with the homeopathetic supporting Hunt: Everything I Know About Nursing: Amazon.co.uk: Jeremy Hunt: 9781499252170: Books

[SueEllen]

Jeremy Hunt really doesn't give a tulip about junior doctors or the rest of the NHS, maybe people should read his rather fantastic book which he co-authored with the now (in)famous kipper Carswell: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Direct-Democ.../dp/0955059801 with some information about it here: The Green Benches: Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book calling for the NHS to be dismantled (including a free download apparently) However I believe this book is more consistent with the homeopathetic supporting Hunt: Everything I Know About Nursing: Amazon.co.uk: Jeremy Hunt: 9781499252170: Books

Shame it took until the Tories attack them for doctors realised the other staff they rely on to do their work have been attacked also.

Some of them don't even know this so were sprouting on the news they were coming after other NHS staff, when it's actually the doctors the government has chosen to deal with last.

[NigelJK]

If I'm an emergency patient in the UK I will be treated by the NHS.

Private Emergency Hospital

Whilst my wife was receiving treatment I saw this unit save a mans life. His wife brought him in as she suspected he was having a stroke, they treated him immediately (no need for triage). Cost £50.

I, on the other hand, had to call a Taxi (on Doc's orders) to take me to A&E and when there waited 2 hours to be seen (after the doc had already diagnosed Appendacitis) only to be put in a side cubical until they could find a bed (missing the crucial cut off for a Theatre slot) all with zero pain killers allowed 'just in case'.

The last bastion of the (militant) 'Unions' is the Civil Service and the NHS (and possibly London underground, but who gives a stuff about London). Their weapon of choice is alway the 'stike' and it's never about using the public as hostages is it?

Wonder what would happen if all Qualified docs set up ltd companies and worked freelance?

[DodgyAgent]

Private Emergency Hospital

Whilst my wife was receiving treatment I saw this unit save a mans life. His wife brought him in as she suspected he was having a stroke, they treated him immediately (no need for triage). Cost £50.

I, on the other hand, had to call a Taxi (on Doc's orders) to take me to A&E and when there waited 2 hours to be seen (after the doc had already diagnosed Appendacitis) only to be put in a side cubical until they could find a bed (missing the crucial cut off for a Theatre slot) all with zero pain killers allowed 'just in case'.

The last bastion of the (militant) 'Unions' is the Civil Service and the NHS (and possibly London underground, but who gives a stuff about London). Their weapon of choice is alway the 'stike' and it's never about using the public as hostages is it?

Wonder what would happen if all Qualified docs set up ltd companies and worked freelance?

Bring it on

We have a great medicentre round the corner of our office. It is not expensive but it costs enough to keep poor people and time wasters out

[BlasterBates]

I'm surprised any contractor is against the NHS because it's funded from NI contributions, so if they did get rid of it, they would cut NI and everyone would have to take out private insurance.

That would mean contractors would be out of pocket.

[NigelJK]

That would mean contractors would be out of pocket have to raise their rates.

FTFY