Trump - Ban all Muslims

[GJABS]

Nope because there are Muslim converts in the US who don't like the political establishment. One of the groups has been around since the 1930's. If you start a war on Muslims then you are going to stir some weirdo in one of those groups to take action.

True, though I think this would be a temporary effect until such weirdos had been weeded out of the system, and other muslims had got used to the idea of zero immigration. Then the remaining muslim population would keep on producing a few terrorists, but not as many as had immigration continued.

[SueEllen]

What does that have to do with the point being made? Xenophibia & things that look like xenophobia?



Not true on any count (from what I gather you to mean by 'aspects of socialism').
Although I'm not sure that socialism means what you think it means.



That only makes any sense if you assume some unearned a priori obligations.
That aside what does it have to do with the point being made (xenophobia & things that look like xenophobia) ?



Are you wrapping hate speech up into discrimination? I have no problem with hate speech anyway (so far as law is concerned) - I value freedom of speech. But that wasn't really what I meant by discrimination.



What's that got to do with anything I said?

I cannot be bothered to go into your points one by one but you seem to think in society individuals have no obligations to others.

The rules, institutions and laws, actually mean we have decided we do have an obligation to others and others have obligations to us, to differing degrees depending on the sphere.

We have also decided to protect the interest of minority groups and those with traditionally less power, and pass laws about it. This means that that public bodies and businesses are not allowed to discriminate against those groups, partly because of selfish reasons as anyone can actually end up in one e.g. tomorrow you could end up in an accident/get an illness and end up with a disability.

While you and I have inherited a lot of these laws because we choose to live in this country and obey them everyday we are implicitly showing we support them. After all there is nothing stopping you from not paying for something in a shop, not getting out of the way of an ambulance on the road while driving or shouting continuous degoratory comments at someone in a wheelchair.

You seem unaware that there are specific laws preventing you, as a private individual, saying anything you like if that rhetoric is insulting someone due to their race, sexuality, religion or disability as defined under the Equality Act but only if that rhetoric is considered to incite others to do violence towards them or is considered harassment.

Point is if you don't agree with the rules of this country, which most Western countries have, then leave.

[SueEllen]

True, though I think this would be a temporary effect until such weirdos had been weeded out of the system, and other muslims had got used to the idea of zero immigration. Then the remaining muslim population would keep on producing a few terrorists, but not as many as had immigration continued.

You do realise as long as there are people in the US there are people who will "discover" the Koran and convert?

[GJABS]

You do realise as long as there are people in the US there are people who will "discover" the Koran and convert?

A very few yes. But nothing like on the scale of the millions of muslims who are currently in America, and the numbers who continue to immigrate there.

[Elliegirl]

Yes, that's what was so unusual about it. The last 50 weren't.

[Elliegirl]

Some years ago I read one of Trump's books on business. Came to a bit where he said he said women have always found him attractive which is why he's always been able to pull beautiful women. And he was dead serious. Strangely, I found I was unable to read any further.

[SpontaneousOrder]

I cannot be bothered to go into your points one by one but you seem to think in society individuals have no obligations to others.

The rules, institutions and laws, actually mean we have decided we do have an obligation to others and others have obligations to us, to differing degrees depending on the sphere.

We have also decided to protect the interest of minority groups and those with traditionally less power, and pass laws about it. This means that that public bodies and businesses are not allowed to discriminate against those groups, partly because of selfish reasons as anyone can actually end up in one e.g. tomorrow you could end up in an accident/get an illness and end up with a disability.

While you and I have inherited a lot of these laws because we choose to live in this country and obey them everyday we are implicitly showing we support them. After all there is nothing stopping you from not paying for something in a shop, not getting out of the way of an ambulance on the road while driving or shouting continuous degoratory comments at someone in a wheelchair.

You seem unaware that there are specific laws preventing you, as a private individual, saying anything you like if that rhetoric is insulting someone due to their race, sexuality, religion or disability as defined under the Equality Act but only if that rhetoric is considered to incite others to do violence towards them or is considered harassment.

Point is if you don't agree with the rules of this country, which most Western countries have, then leave.

That's a very long way of saying "No - I don't have an argument of any kind which relates in any way to the point you raised. I just wanted to talk about completely different things".

Although quoting me and calling it crap kind of makes it confusing.

[SpontaneousOrder]

No, he wants to ban all Muslims entering the USA, not just immigrants. This includes any Muslims with US citizenship, including those born there or have converted which in turn includes US servicemen serving abroad.

Did you make that up? The original source (unless there has been another more recent one) never mentions any such thing, and specifically frames it in relation to immigration.

DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT ON PREVENTING MUSLIM IMMIGRATION

(New York, NY) December 7th, 2015, -- Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on. According to Pew Research, among others, there is great hatred towards Americans by large segments of the Muslim population. Most recently, a poll from the Center for Security Policy released data showing "25% of those polled agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justified as a part of the global jihad" and 51% of those polled, "agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah." Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against non-believers who won't convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women.

Mr. Trump stated, "Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life. If I win the election for President, we are going to Make America Great Again." - Donald J. Trump

-- https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-r...im-immigration

[NickFitz]

A very few yes. But nothing like on the scale of the millions of muslims who are currently in America, and the numbers who continue to immigrate there.

I take it you are aware that a large number of American Muslims are free-born citizens, of African American lineage? You may have heard of one called Muhammed Ali… there are lots more just like him, though.

[NickFitz]

Did you make that up? The original source (unless there has been another more recent one) never mentions any such thing, and specifically frames it in relation to immigration.

That isn't the original source; that's the thing they put out there for plausible deniability. He made his rabble-rousing speech. Then he hid, and let his campaign manager answer questions on his behalf; when journalists asked if this would apply to various cases such as US citizens, the military, and so on, the campaign manager said it would apply to "all".

Then Trump came out from his box and said it wouldn't apply to Muslim members of the military or “people living in the country.” (He left that last phrase deliberately vague.)

Then, having kicked up enough tulip, they post the "official" announcement online for the gullible to find and use to defend him.

And you never disappoint, do you? A fascist rabble rouser can always rely on there being enough contemptibly stupid people to come out in support of whatever bile they spew.