Working weekends on TOIL basis

[northernladuk]

Just thinking... Rectifying defects in your workmanship in your own time is a pointer to being outside IR35, isn't it....

I wouldn't have said it was much of one. Permies can do the same as well.

[SueEllen]

Just thinking... Rectifying defects in your workmanship in your own time is a pointer to being outside IR35, isn't it....

It is.

[SueEllen]

+1. The fact that the other contractors are idiots doesn't mean you have to be.

+2

I wouldn't falsify invoices and timesheets for anyone.

If the manager is unable to get permission from the right department/higher up to allow contractors to invoice for the correct days worked then I would be very suspicious as it is fraud.

Plus if they are that bad at project planning what else are they up to?

[Fred Bloggs]

The further this thread rolls on, the more inclined I'd be to look for another contract I think.

[psychocandy]

Obviously, I aint going to say who my client is but I think you'd be surprised. Its a very large european company.

Must admit I find they're attitude a bit strange. I'm also having serious hassle with them even trying to get permission for any time off as well - i.e. even 1 day between now and Xmas. Which is a bit rich considering they want me to work up these days TOIL and then not even give me chance to take them. So they can sod off if thats the case anyway.

[craig1]

Obviously, I aint going to say who my client is but I think you'd be surprised. Its a very large european company.

Must admit I find they're attitude a bit strange. I'm also having serious hassle with them even trying to get permission for any time off as well - i.e. even 1 day between now and Xmas. Which is a bit rich considering they want me to work up these days TOIL and then not even give me chance to take them. So they can sod off if thats the case anyway.

For time off, you should be telling them you're taking time off rather than asking. If you're not going off right in the middle of a critical period and you've made no commitments for those dates then they have no reason to grumble. You're not their employee.

[psychocandy]

For time off, you should be telling them you're taking time off rather than asking. If you're not going off right in the middle of a critical period and you've made no commitments for those dates then they have no reason to grumble. You're not their employee.

Yeh, craig we've discussed this. Strictly speaking, yeh, you're not an employee and they've got no right to stop you or make you turn up to the office on a particular day. However, I think its fair to advise a client of your plans and make sure they've no objections.

If they say they have then its difficult. They cant stop you, but then again they can always not renew your contract or worse still, terminate you if they so desire.

With my particular contract, I advised them of time off three months in advance, that was three weeks ago. Its actually not during the current contract so I didnt think it appropriate to be too forward and assume I was getting an extension. I checked the project plan and it doesnt seem particularly busy those weeks.

However, in the last few weeks manager has promised to let me know and has been messing me around. Project has fallen behind in the last few weeks (few permies have left) and hes asked us contractors to work weekends to do documentation on a TOIL basis.

I've got a nasty feeling they're going to try and object to any time away. So what do I do? Tell them to sod off, upset them etc or suck it up. Difficult one, eh?

[Pondlife]

Seems most likely to be a bad PM IMHO.

They don't want to report that they are behind and therefore don't want to be seen spending budget early to catch up.

As long as you are comfortable that you are pulling your weight with the workload then I would refuse TOIL but say you're happy to work weekends at the usual rate (if you are). The discussion confirmation about any time off you have planned in the future can always happen at renewal time, if like you say, you've already asked told them about it.

[craig1]

Yeh, craig we've discussed this. Strictly speaking, yeh, you're not an employee and they've got no right to stop you or make you turn up to the office on a particular day. However, I think its fair to advise a client of your plans and make sure they've no objections.

If they say they have then its difficult. They cant stop you, but then again they can always not renew your contract or worse still, terminate you if they so desire.

With my particular contract, I advised them of time off three months in advance, that was three weeks ago. Its actually not during the current contract so I didnt think it appropriate to be too forward and assume I was getting an extension. I checked the project plan and it doesnt seem particularly busy those weeks.

However, in the last few weeks manager has promised to let me know and has been messing me around. Project has fallen behind in the last few weeks (few permies have left) and hes asked us contractors to work weekends to do documentation on a TOIL basis.

I've got a nasty feeling they're going to try and object to any time away. So what do I do? Tell them to sod off, upset them etc or suck it up. Difficult one, eh?

Negotiation time. There are no absolute positions.

If you're planning on time off to recharge then it's in their interests to let you do so. If they want you to work on through planned holidays then a rate rise is definitely on the table. If they're not in the position to negotiate or compromise on anything in return for you meeting their change of scope/duration then it's entirely up to you if you buckle!

For example, I'm off one day next week as I never work on my birthday. The client asked me if I could come in anyway, I quoted him 5 times daily rate for that day as that's what it would take for me to compromise, he declined and I'm taking my time off. If he'd agreed to that 5x rate I'd have treated it as an extra birthday present but I'd rather have the day off.

Most client managers have no clue how to manage contractors and default to treating them like disposable permies. It's up to contractors to show how we add more value than permies but also that we're independent non-employees.

[psychocandy]

Negotiation time. There are no absolute positions.

If you're planning on time off to recharge then it's in their interests to let you do so. If they want you to work on through planned holidays then a rate rise is definitely on the table. If they're not in the position to negotiate or compromise on anything in return for you meeting their change of scope/duration then it's entirely up to you if you buckle!

For example, I'm off one day next week as I never work on my birthday. The client asked me if I could come in anyway, I quoted him 5 times daily rate for that day as that's what it would take for me to compromise, he declined and I'm taking my time off. If he'd agreed to that 5x rate I'd have treated it as an extra birthday present but I'd rather have the day off.

Most client managers have no clue how to manage contractors and default to treating them like disposable permies. It's up to contractors to show how we add more value than permies but also that we're independent non-employees.

Yep. Spot on about the disposable permies bit.

Thing is I admitted to the guy that even though the Mrs had booked time off work for those weeks the holiday wasnt booked as such. Therefore, if it was a problem then I'd try and re-arrange for alternative weeks in a two month window. So me being helpful rather than telling him tough its been booked for months is causing me grief now....

Hes dragging it out I reckon because he doesnt want me to have any time off. He keeps badgering about this weekend TOIL thing but I've been non-commital so far. Think he knows that if he tells me no way then I aint going to play ball with the weekend idea. Taking the piss or what...

Saying that he is leaving the company in 4 weeks. Excellent news. If he plays up and says no way, might just wait until he leaves and then tell his replacement (if any) that I aint going to be there those weeks..... Pity my renewal is due one week before he leaves though otherwise I'd just negotiate it in that.