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New to Contracting - working v part time for old employer - bad idea?

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    #11
    Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post
    I'm in direct opposition to the northernlad, I struggle to reconcile his good little boy attitude and running a business. The "gotcha" statement of not being able to tell them for example makes no sense, no company over shares like that, a very permie attitude in my opinion. He probably abides by the Catholic concept that even thinking a bad thought is a sin.

    Technically what contractors like myself do is not moonlighting, it's more about "multi-gigging" (in the US it's referred to as "over-employed" for employees), currently billing 3 clients for 5 days each week, rarely work outside of 8am-6pm and never work weekends, I deliver at least as much as my peers, and I'm average. Ultimately it's about delivery, so you have to be capable of that.

    If I'm interpreting your post correctly, it's just 2 additional days per month? In that case it would be a great tester for multi-gigging.

    Definitely sort the SDS out.
    Agreed.

    If one is lucky enough, being in business should always be about multi-gigging, or multi-invoicing. Indeed, isn't or wasn't that an IR35 test in and of itself at one time, to prove oneself as being 'in business'.

    Do plumbers take on more than one gig at a time? Do airlines over sell tickets for seats? It is business so thinking like a permie while working as a contractor seems counter productive.

    As to the OP's point, fair play for not taking on the previous role again just now but, in time and once you've got yourself up to snuff on contracting, go back to them and see if they require a part time hand.

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      #12
      Again, people are forgetting that clients might have a view on this. If they are expecting you to be exclusively working for them eight hours a day and you are splitting your time between several contracts then they are probably going to get rid of you if they find out.

      Don't get me wrong, if you are being paid by delivery and can manage your own time or the two contracts don't overlap then all good but I think there is a bit of a mass delusion creeping in that you can work two contracts at once and the clients won't mind.

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        #13
        Originally posted by simes View Post

        Agreed.

        If one is lucky enough, being in business should always be about multi-gigging, or multi-invoicing. Indeed, isn't or wasn't that an IR35 test in and of itself at one time, to prove oneself as being 'in business'.
        Agreed where it is possible. A day rate is pretty clearly defined though. You are paid a day so you do a day. If you negotiate on delivery of service then good on you, fill your boots.
        Do plumbers take on more than one gig at a time? Do airlines over sell tickets for seats? It is business so thinking like a permie while working as a contractor seems counter productive.
        Plumbers do but they don't double charge their clients (on the whole). They have a set rate per day and you pay that pro-rata. Airlines over sell tickets but they don't charge you for one you didn't take. There is only one payment per seat. A contractor charging two clients 8 hours each a day doesn't align with either of your examples. That said I'm sure we've all seen examples where a builder/plumber have done something, charge you for it and it's apparent they haven't spent half the time they quoted for and you feel pretty pissed off even if you got what you wanted. The funny thing is if you speak to one of these types of trades people they also think they are justified in ripping of their customers as well.

        The point I'm always trying to make is there is absolutely nothing wrong with having multiple clients and delivering good value and meeting expectations. Billing two clients 8 hours a day when you only give each half is a piss take. Period. If you can get away with it then good for you but don't try convince us that is right and you are doing nothing wrong.
        Last edited by northernladuk; 26 August 2022, 13:28.
        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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          #14
          Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post

          I'm of the opinion these bum-on-seat contracts aren't really B2B, but that's off topic, but how do you know it's not adhering? My contracts don't stipulate hours, the UK one is "day rate", but I am able to reconcile that with my output at least equaling that of a days output of my peers. Arbitrage like this is business 101, sitting watching the clock, putting in your time irrespective of delivery is pure permie thought process.

          To be precise, a working week would be 15 days billed.

          Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

          Agreed where it is possible. A day rate is pretty clearly defined though. You are paid a day so you do a day. If you negotiate on delivery of service then good on you, fill your boots.

          Plumbers do but they don't double charge their clients (on the whole). They have a set rate per day and you pay that pro-rata. Airlines over sell tickets but they don't charge you for one you didn't take. There is only one payment per seat. A contractor charging two clients 8 hours each a day doesn't align with either of your examples. That said I'm sure we've all seen examples where a builder/plumber have done something, charge you for it and it's apparent they haven't spent half the time they quoted for and you feel pretty pissed off even if you got what you wanted. The funny thing is if you speak to one of these types of trades people they also think they are justified in ripping of their customers as well.

          The point I'm always trying to make is there is absolutely nothing wrong with having multiple clients and delivering good value and meeting expectations. Billing two clients 8 hours a day when you only give each half is a piss take. Period. If you can get away with it then good for you but don't try convince us that is right and you are doing nothing wrong.

          What NLUK said, and what I've highlighted in bold is a terrible justification for what you're doing, they're paying you for a day of your time, and surely your USP over the employees in that you get things done quicker so you can deliver more. If your contract was based on specific deliverables and paid accordingly then fill your boots doing it quickly and then getting on to next client.

          Comment


            #15
            Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
            The point I'm always trying to make is there is absolutely nothing wrong with having multiple clients and delivering good value and meeting expectations. Billing two clients 8 hours a day when you only give each half is a piss take. Period. If you can get away with it then good for you but don't try convince us that is right and you are doing nothing wrong.
            That's bum-on-seat contractor mentality. Permies are paid for their time, contractors for their services.

            Odd that you're so pedantic about stuff and quick to shout "sockie" or "permie-speak" to any contractor who might accidentally say employer instead of client, yet you have such a blind spot over this.

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              #16
              Originally posted by gables View Post
              What NLUK said, and what I've highlighted in bold is a terrible justification for what you're doing, they're paying you for a day of your time, and surely your USP over the employees in that you get things done quicker so you can deliver more. If your contract was based on specific deliverables and paid accordingly then fill your boots doing it quickly and then getting on to next client.
              And I think that's 100% anti-business and inside IR35 / permie mentality. Business is about arbitrage whilst providing value and being at least as good as the competition. I do that, and whilst you're billing 1, I'm billing 3. I guess it's a case of "you do you", but I don't need to "justify" anything, taking this to a place of "morality" is what I've described in other threads, rationalizing it in the form of the power imbalance, again to me I'd say that's permie mentality.

              The USP you're suggesting is "good little boy" mentality, "reward me with more work sir"!

              Why "move on", put your business cap on, should you "move on" and deliver linearly for a single client, or treble business revenue?

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
                Billing two clients 8 hours a day when you only give each half is a piss take. Period. If you can get away with it then good for you but don't try convince us that is right and you are doing nothing wrong.
                Yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with it if you're delivering, delivering 8 hours value in 2 hours is fine, it's arbitrage of time, that's business.

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                  #18
                  I too do not understand, much less am able to reconcile, the perpetually vocalised 'employee vs contractor' thrust, while at the same time not being able to promote being able to invoice on deliverables.

                  Is not a Work Package all about deliverables, and is not that an option, if offered, to remain Outside IR35?

                  And is not invoicing on an eight hour day all about Control and Permiedom and being Inside?

                  For my insignificant part, I would invoice as much as was humanly possible, IF I could Deliver it all. And at the end of the day, that decision is up to the business owner.

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                    #19
                    So people are happy to sign two contracts to run simultaneously that both require you to be available between 0900 and 1700?

                    Also, what happens if and when they want you to go back to the office?

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                      #20
                      Originally posted by SussexSeagull View Post
                      So people are happy to sign two contracts to run simultaneously that both require you to be available between 0900 and 1700?
                      Why not?

                      Originally posted by SussexSeagull View Post
                      Also, what happens if and when they want you to go back to the office?
                      Inside IR35 alarm bells ringing again (my business isn't under their control); if they force a return to office, I decline, it's their loss. Remember multi-gigging is multiple income streams, I'm in a far stronger position not to put up with any client tomfoolery, I have RAID redundancy baked into my businesses finances.

                      For what it's worth I multi-gigged just before covid doing doing 1 on-site day at an hedge fund on Monday, and the rest of the week at some FTSE. Other times I worked on site occasionally for one client, and one remote, so it is possible.

                      My business operates 100% remotely now, irrespective of handling multiple clients, I'm done with onsite crap, pure bum on seat nonsense for senior developers.

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