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New to Contracting - working v part time for old employer - bad idea?

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    New to Contracting - working v part time for old employer - bad idea?

    I am new to contracting. So new I have not even started yet. I have, however, landed my first contract, very happy with it. Good day rate, outside IR35, company I have never worked with before. Ltd Company set up, Accountant appointed etc. Start in 2 weeks. Main client will be expecting me to work 5 days a week for them.

    I am now nearly at the end of my 3 month notice period and my present employer (perm) are realising how much knowledge is about to walk out the door on a not yet completed project. They have broached the idea of keeping me on an a 2 day a month basis.

    Is this a bad idea? Is it actually a good idea with IR35?

    To be clear I have no intention of short changing anyone. The working practices of both clients would allow for early morning/evening/weekend to ensure that I have only charging a full day if that is what is done.

    Would someone in that situation normally be clear with main client about the side gig?

    #2
    EDIT : Just read GreenBastards reply and realised i cocked up. I replied thinking it was 2 days a week so had potential to impact your new contract. 2 days a month certainly won't and can easily be managed so I've editted the post as most of it is now irrelevant.

    IR35 is on a contract by contract basis. Will working for your ex employed affect your outside status with the other one? Absolutely not. You can run two gigs in parallel and each will have it's own determination and that determination will have nothing to do with the other client.

    It's usually unlikely, even with contract changes and changes of working practices etc, that you can be outside IR35 doing the job you just left but that doesn't really matter. You can do it as an inside gig and just chuck the whole lot in a pension and not pay any tax on it. I doubt the client will be up for doing an SDS for you and all that just for a few days particularly when there is absolutely no chance substitution can come in to play.
    Last edited by northernladuk; 23 August 2022, 22:37.
    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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      #3
      I'm in direct opposition to the northernlad, I struggle to reconcile his good little boy attitude and running a business. The "gotcha" statement of not being able to tell them for example makes no sense, no company over shares like that, a very permie attitude in my opinion. He probably abides by the Catholic concept that even thinking a bad thought is a sin.

      Technically what contractors like myself do is not moonlighting, it's more about "multi-gigging" (in the US it's referred to as "over-employed" for employees), currently billing 3 clients for 5 days each week, rarely work outside of 8am-6pm and never work weekends, I deliver at least as much as my peers, and I'm average. Ultimately it's about delivery, so you have to be capable of that.

      If I'm interpreting your post correctly, it's just 2 additional days per month? In that case it would be a great tester for multi-gigging.

      Definitely sort the SDS out.

      Comment


        #4

        Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post
        I'm in direct opposition to the northernlad, I struggle to reconcile his good little boy attitude and running a business. The "gotcha" statement of not being able to tell them for example makes no sense, no company over shares like that, a very permie attitude in my opinion. He probably abides by the Catholic concept that even thinking a bad thought is a sin.
        No need for that really. It's not permie thinking at all. It's business as it's clearly about contractual terms and client expecation so couldn't be further from permie thinking. Billing two clients for a full 5 days ea and only working 9 -5 as expected by both is not adhering to the contract nor the expectations of the client. The example of telling each client is to gauge whether you are ripping htem off or not. Flexible working for two clients to deliver expected outcomes for the right price is perfectly acceptable. Blatently moonlighting on their time isn't. You've named me directly as we are both in this thread but I do believe I'm not the only one with this view in the other threads.

        All that said, on this particular thread I've definitely ballsed up by not reading the post properly It's only 2 days a month not 2 days a week I had in my head so I've removed all the guff that is not relevant. I'd agree that this wouldn't be a bad thing to try as it happens.

        Going off topic though.

        Technically what contractors like myself do is not moonlighting, it's more about "multi-gigging" (in the US it's referred to as "over-employed" for employees), currently billing 3 clients for 5 days each week, rarely work outside of 8am-6pm and never work weekends, I deliver at least as much as my peers, and I'm average. Ultimately it's about delivery, so you have to be capable of that.
        You aren't fully clear in what you are doing. Are you billing 3 clients 5 days a week each or are you billing 5 days a week spread over the 3 clients?

        'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for the replies. Certainly food for thought. Having slept on it I am erring against it mainly as for my first contract gig I want to be 'all in' at the start. Giving myself capacity to put the hours in if I need to get up to speed.

          Should old employer still need me in a couple of months and I am bedded down I may consider it.

          From an IR35 perspective main gig has an SDS in place. With the side gig I would move to a small consultancy rather than contract direct. I take the point about substitution though.

          Again thanks for the thoughts.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by northernladuk View Post


            No need for that really. It's not permie thinking at all. It's business as it's clearly about contractual terms and client expecation so couldn't be further from permie thinking. Billing two clients for a full 5 days ea and only working 9 -5 as expected by both is not adhering to the contract nor the expectations of the client. The example of telling each client is to gauge whether you are ripping htem off or not. Flexible working for two clients to deliver expected outcomes for the right price is perfectly acceptable. Blatently moonlighting on their time isn't. You've named me directly as we are both in this thread but I do believe I'm not the only one with this view in the other threads.

            All that said, on this particular thread I've definitely ballsed up by not reading the post properly It's only 2 days a month not 2 days a week I had in my head so I've removed all the guff that is not relevant. I'd agree that this wouldn't be a bad thing to try as it happens.

            Going off topic though.



            You aren't fully clear in what you are doing. Are you billing 3 clients 5 days a week each or are you billing 5 days a week spread over the 3 clients?
            I'm of the opinion these bum-on-seat contracts aren't really B2B, but that's off topic, but how do you know it's not adhering? My contracts don't stipulate hours, the UK one is "day rate", but I am able to reconcile that with my output at least equaling that of a days output of my peers. Arbitrage like this is business 101, sitting watching the clock, putting in your time irrespective of delivery is pure permie thought process.

            To be precise, a working week would be 15 days billed.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post

              I'm of the opinion these bum-on-seat contracts aren't really B2B, but that's off topic, but how do you know it's not adhering? My contracts don't stipulate hours, the UK one is "day rate", but I am able to reconcile that with my output at least equaling that of a days output of my peers. Arbitrage like this is business 101, sitting watching the clock, putting in your time irrespective of delivery is pure permie thought process.

              To be precise, a working week would be 15 days billed.
              You've obviously gotten yourself in an incredibly fortunate situation to be able to pull this one off. Surely you can see how unique this is and you cannot just sit their and advocate every noob can do it? In a vast majority of situations this will simply not work for multiple reasons. Busy clients, working times in contract, contractor can't deliver/manage as situation like that. It's very unique so your attitude that everyone can do it and it's always right is clearly wrong and poor advice. A more balanced view could be acceptable (from both of us I guess). If you said it's possible in rare situations when all the planets align but you appreciate in many cases it can't be then I'd totally agree. To just drop in to every single thread on this topic and say we should all be doing it for every gig even when working times are clearly stipulated is just wrong.

              I don't think you can see the wood for the trees because you are doing it. I can't see the daylight because I've never seen a situation that I could pull this off so I'm not open to the idea and resort to the blank and white of the contract. We couldn't be further apart on this and there is probably a very good middle ground but we aren't the two people to find that. Just the way it is.

              You counter my extreme one side view and I'll challenge billing for 15 days in 5 when one is a day rate with the last breath left in my body. It looks like the way we'll have to go forward. Accusing someone of perm thinking and that Catholic comment just aren't required.

              'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Sherwood12 View Post
                Thanks for the replies. Certainly food for thought. Having slept on it I am erring against it mainly as for my first contract gig I want to be 'all in' at the start. Giving myself capacity to put the hours in if I need to get up to speed.

                Should old employer still need me in a couple of months and I am bedded down I may consider it.

                From an IR35 perspective main gig has an SDS in place. With the side gig I would move to a small consultancy rather than contract direct. I take the point about substitution though.

                Again thanks for the thoughts.
                I'll hold my hand up and do a total U turn on this. Surely you can fit 15 hours a month in and still have the capacity? If your ex employer wants you so badly then negotiate. If they want you all day on set dates then that clearly wont work so just put all your cards on the table. Make it clear to your them you are in a full time contract and need to commit to the new client but if they can come to an agreement it's adhoc type work that's highly flexible to suit your new contract you are all ears.

                Just have to work with them to see what the art of the possible is. If they require big lumps of your time in your clients time then it's just a no goer. If it can be done in evenings or small bits then happy days.

                Open some dialogue and see. You are in control here so see what you can get from them.

                P.S. Don't do it because you feel some obligation to your ex employer. Many of us feel like this when we leave and want to continue to try to help but once you've gone you won't give it a second thought. Only do it if it makes total sense for you and you alone. If this is awkward and not worth it but you don't want to let your ex employer down then screw it and walk away. You'll not think about it again once you've gone and they'll survive.
                Last edited by northernladuk; 24 August 2022, 10:19.
                'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

                  You've obviously gotten yourself in an incredibly fortunate situation to be able to pull this one off. Surely you can see how unique this is and you cannot just sit their and advocate every noob can do it? In a vast majority of situations this will simply not work for multiple reasons. Busy clients, working times in contract, contractor can't deliver/manage as situation like that. It's very unique so your attitude that everyone can do it and it's always right is clearly wrong and poor advice. A more balanced view could be acceptable (from both of us I guess). If you said it's possible in rare situations when all the planets align but you appreciate in many cases it can't be then I'd totally agree. To just drop in to every single thread on this topic and say we should all be doing it for every gig even when working times are clearly stipulated is just wrong.

                  I don't think you can see the wood for the trees because you are doing it. I can't see the daylight because I've never seen a situation that I could pull this off so I'm not open to the idea and resort to the blank and white of the contract. We couldn't be further apart on this and there is probably a very good middle ground but we aren't the two people to find that. Just the way it is.

                  You counter my extreme one side view and I'll challenge billing for 15 days in 5 when one is a day rate with the last breath left in my body. It looks like the way we'll have to go forward. Accusing someone of perm thinking and that Catholic comment just aren't required.
                  Oh without doubt you have to be seasoned and senior skill level, but the critical thing is time management and the ability to context switch. 50% of people I've worked with are more able than myself, but their time management leaves a lot to be desired (even in the context of a single gig). I'd say on the measure of the opening post of this thread they'd not be ready to deliver more than one contract "full time", by virtue of even asking.

                  But with that said I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility for seasoned devs/devops to do this.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post
                    I'd say on the measure of the opening post of this thread they'd not be ready to deliver more than one contract "full time", by virtue of even asking.
                    And I think this nails it on many threads we get. I do think his question was more about not understanding IR35 than delivering multiple contracts but even then your comment still holds true. If you don't understand IR35 well enough to know it's even on a contract by contract basis they you could argue they aren't ready. Many questions on here are the same. I want to become a small consultancy at my client how do I do it? If you have to ask a question at that level you are lacking the ability to actually do it.

                    For 2 days a month with an ex employer that might go to any lengths to keep him for this time I think he's got a good platform to learn though. Couldn't be any less time really could it so no harm in giving it a go as long as he keeps his new contract as the ultimate focus.
                    'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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