State of the Market

[SchumiStars]

I have heard it called the White Collar recession and it certainly isn't just Developers. Funnily enough a guy from New Zealand popped up in my LI timeline this morning and it sounds as bad out there as well.

Still, we have the latest in the occasion series of events that will spark the market back into life with the Financial New Year. See UK General Election, US Presidential Election and UK Autumn Budget for further reading.

Nope. Don't believe anything like that will get the market moving without wanting to sound too negative.

Birthday last week and getting close to 50. So probably about time, I started slowing down anyway. Judging by running and cycling speed my body is in agreement.

Just need to work out how to retire on the assets I have rather than what work I could or won't be doing in the future.

I feel for junior grads in computer science who have absolutely no change of getting anything ATM. 3 yrs ago when they started their degrees it was booming. Now, no-one needs IT at all. It's going to set their careers back by at least 5yrs.

[Dorkeaux]

I feel for junior grads in computer science who have absolutely no change of getting anything ATM. 3 yrs ago when they started their degrees it was booming. Now, no-one needs IT at all. It's going to set their careers back by at least 5yrs.

Over a decade ago, I was working with a client as an architect.
A young man chased me down and presented himself as an architect also.
I asked him what background he brought to bear. Programming, Business domain knowledge, Infrastructure etc..

Looked about twelve, and had just graduated.
He informed me with a straight face that "did all of that in Uni", and had graduated as an architect.
He then said something that I still dine out on: "Programming is what we have Indians do".

This was some time ago, but even then coding was considered a commodity trade by the schools.

[Dorkeaux]

I have heard it called the White Collar recession and it certainly isn't just Developers. Funnily enough a guy from New Zealand popped up in my LI timeline this morning and it sounds as bad out there as well.

Still, we have the latest in the occasion series of events that will spark the market back into life with the Financial New Year. See UK General Election, US Presidential Election and UK Autumn Budget for further reading.

I worked my early contracting career in a country other than England.
It was good, but when my girlfriend and I came to the UK to contract decades ago, it was like winning the lottery.

It might not seem it but the UK contractor market was the best in the world by far, for a long time. I would argue that it still is, relative to other countries.

If anyone has practical experience of the actual market in other countries (rather than just one offs) I'd love to hear about it.

[SussexSeagull]

Nope. Don't believe anything like that will get the market moving without wanting to sound too negative.

Birthday last week and getting close to 50. So probably about time, I started slowing down anyway. Judging by running and cycling speed my body is in agreement.

Just need to work out how to retire on the assets I have rather than what work I could or won't be doing in the future.

I feel for junior grads in computer science who have absolutely no change of getting anything ATM. 3 yrs ago when they started their degrees it was booming. Now, no-one needs IT at all. It's going to set their careers back by at least 5yrs.

I have said for years that I wouldn't recommend anyone got into the industry and the UK had long stopped developing its own talent but did it for other countries. I am 51 so hoped I would get a few more years out of it but even that looks unlikely now.

[dsc]

I worked my early contracting career in a country other than England.
It was good, but when my girlfriend and I came to the UK to contract decades ago, it was like winning the lottery.

It might not seem it but the UK contractor market was the best in the world by far, for a long time. I would argue that it still is, relative to other countries.

If anyone has practical experience of the actual market in other countries (rather than just one offs) I'd love to hear about it.

Which country if you don't mind sharing?

I'm from Poland and for me the contracting market in the UK was also like a bloody gold mine, people earning £500+pd was incredible back then in 2007-2008, heck I think average (monthly!) wage in Poland was about that back then. Shame that it gradually went down the hill and we are in a position where getting even an inside contract is a win, actually even getting a job offer seems to be a success

I think Poland is still a good place to be for b2b "jobs" (well they are contracts, but most people just treat them like perm jobs as no one really gives a tulip about b2b / perm designation, often if you have good skills you can just pick which ever you like), you need to be a senior with 10-15+yrs of exp, but over here I reckon most tick that box. English seems to be fine for some roles, although I have noticed that often fully remote isn't an option any more, it's hybrid more often, but that seems to be the new norm everywhere anyway.

[fatJock]

April 2025. Market is dead, no signs of recovery.

No software development jobs available, permi or contracting or grads. 2yrs since last contract.

I'm genuinely struggling to accept that there has been nothing you could have got in the last two years? Even if it wasn't what you ideally wanted .....

[SussexSeagull]

I'm genuinely struggling to accept that there has been nothing you could have got in the last two years? Even if it wasn't what you ideally wanted .....

It is less than a year with me and I am a Tester but the market is appalling so I can see it happening, even with people who aren't that picky (I certainly haven't been for a long time). Problem is, even if you had a network, recruiters are struggling as much as we are and people you worked with are looking after themselves at the moment (understandably).

A combination of ATS and a lot of available candidates means if you don't exactly match a role you won't get near it.

[fatJock]

It is less than a year with me and I am a Tester but the market is appalling so I can see it happening, even with people who aren't that picky (I certainly haven't been for a long time). Problem is, even if you had a network, recruiters are struggling as much as we are and people you worked with are looking after themselves at the moment (understandably).

A combination of ATS and a lot of available candidates means if you don't exactly match a role you won't get near it.

Hmmmm I suppose. Maybe I was lucky with my timing as I'd taken a year out by choice and then came back in Oct 23 and have been at the same place since then - a return to somewhere I had worked before and as a PM so a different market I suppose. Probably also helped that most of my work has been from an established network but I imagine you're right in that regard too - people are looking after themselves first. I'll likely land with a bump then when I am looking again.

Development not my area but I have peers who do and they are all in work so maybe a geography thing? As for testing (albeit mainly test governance) the place I am with at the moment is thin on the ground with some contractors there despite their preference for that area to be staffed with perms.

Two years is a long while especially if someone has been actively looking.

[Dorkeaux]

Which country if you don't mind sharing?

I'm from Poland and for me the contracting market in the UK was also like a bloody gold mine, people earning £500+pd was incredible back then in 2007-2008, heck I think average (monthly!) wage in Poland was about that back then. Shame that it gradually went down the hill and we are in a position where getting even an inside contract is a win, actually even getting a job offer seems to be a success

I think Poland is still a good place to be for b2b "jobs" (well they are contracts, but most people just treat them like perm jobs as no one really gives a tulip about b2b / perm designation, often if you have good skills you can just pick which ever you like), you need to be a senior with 10-15+yrs of exp, but over here I reckon most tick that box. English seems to be fine for some roles, although I have noticed that often fully remote isn't an option any more, it's hybrid more often, but that seems to be the new norm everywhere anyway.

Interesting, thanks DSC.

When freedom of movement was a thing, and IT really _was_ a shortage occupation I greatly enjoyed working with the Poles (and other Eastern Europeans).
Great attidude, education and work ethic. Weirdly, I've never actually met a Polish plumber.

Not like it was, however. The pound is worth about half what it was against back in the day, inflation has continued and I'm not commanding much more in nominal figures than I was many years ago..

But I still like it here.

[SussexSeagull]

Hmmmm I suppose. Maybe I was lucky with my timing as I'd taken a year out by choice and then came back in Oct 23 and have been at the same place since then - a return to somewhere I had worked before and as a PM so a different market I suppose. Probably also helped that most of my work has been from an established network but I imagine you're right in that regard too - people are looking after themselves first. I'll likely land with a bump then when I am looking again.

Development not my area but I have peers who do and they are all in work so maybe a geography thing? As for testing (albeit mainly test governance) the place I am with at the moment is thin on the ground with some contractors there despite their preference for that area to be staffed with perms.

Two years is a long while especially if someone has been actively looking.

To offer some context, I finished my last but one contract in November 2023 and found a new contract within a fortnight (granted it then took an age to actually get going but that wasn't really market related) and have been looking since June this time round.

For the getting on three decades I have been testing there has been a cycle of organisations deciding it can be sorted out between developers and the business up until the point something goes wrong or the developers and business ask for some testing expertise to help them as they would like to concentrate on their actual jobs. Rinse and repeat.