State of the Market

[simes]

Ok, fair play.

[hobnob]

Courage? Isn't an Outside contract what it's all about?

As I understand it, this comes down to "supply of labour" vs "supply of services". E.g. suppose that I hire myself out as an Azure consultant for £X00/day; that could be inside or outside IR35. On the other hand, suppose that MyCo offers to do Azure migrations: I'd discuss a client's requirements, including how many VMs they've got and how soon they all need to be moved, then quote them £X,000 for the project as a whole. At that point, IR35 wouldn't apply, i.e. the client wouldn't give an SDS. However, if I subcontracted any of the work then there would be an SDS involved, between MyCo and the sub-contractor.

So, to answer your question, I think that "supply of services" is the best position to be in, which fits in with what a "real" company does. However, coming up with an accurate quote (so that you don't bankrupt yourself if the project overruns) is a skill that needs to be learned...

[Lance]

As I understand it, this comes down to "supply of labour" vs "supply of services". E.g. suppose that I hire myself out as an Azure consultant for £X00/day; that could be inside or outside IR35. On the other hand, suppose that MyCo offers to do Azure migrations: I'd discuss a client's requirements, including how many VMs they've got and how soon they all need to be moved, then quote them £X,000 for the project as a whole. At that point, IR35 wouldn't apply, i.e. the client wouldn't give an SDS. However, if I subcontracted any of the work then there would be an SDS involved, between MyCo and the sub-contractor.

So, to answer your question, I think that "supply of services" is the best position to be in, which fits in with what a "real" company does. However, coming up with an accurate quote (so that you don't bankrupt yourself if the project overruns) is a skill that needs to be learned...

The phrase you are looking for is "contract of services vs contract for services". Those are very specific legal terms and form the basis of much case law in the UK. Including some IR35 cases.
This is pretty basic stuff and well documented.

Using terms like "supply of services" and "supply of labour" is totally unhelpful as there are better, and recognised, terms that already exist.

And there is nothing wrong with time and materials as a method of billing.

[eek]

The phrase you are looking for is "contract of services vs contract for services". Those are very specific legal terms and form the basis of much case law in the UK. Including some IR35 cases.
This is pretty basic stuff and well documented.

Using terms like "supply of services" and "supply of labour" is totally unhelpful as there are better, and recognised, terms that already exist.

And there is nothing wrong with time and materials as a method of billing.

But the reality is that the contract doesn't matter - the only thing that really matters nowadays is the actions of the end client if / when / were HMRC to come calling.

You can have a contract 100% word perfect (which would be a miracle in itself based on your average agency) but if there is a clawback clause and the end client under pressure from HMRC says the contract should have been inside no level of perfect words is going to solve the problem for you.

Heck, given the existential crisis an IR35 tax demand would have on a lot of agencies I suspect they would be trying to claw the money back from you even if the contract didn't have an explicit clawback clause.

And yes I know I sound like Debbie Downer but we don't know how this is going to play out but I do know how HMRC want to play it...

[PerfectStorm]

Bouyant market, lots of outside roles coming in

[KentDogWalker]

I've got to say - it's great to hear opportunities coming in, and 9/10 outside of IR35.

I think we possibly got what we wanted - the companies stopped taking the easy advice of the 'consultants' and actually made their roles outside of IR35, in name and in spirit. Everybody wins.

just finished a 6 month outside gig, and straight into another one with ≈ £100 bump in day rate

[Paralytic]

just finished a 6 month outside gig, and straight into another one with ≈ £100 bump in day rate

That'll be because of all those lockdown dogs people purchased.

[PerfectStorm]

just finished a 6 month outside gig, and straight into another one with ≈ £100 bump in day rate

And to think that people on here were closing their companies and recommending getting a job in Tesco

[GigiBronz]

have been approached for 3 outside roles over prev weak.good rates as well for a python dev.
2 inside roles for some FS outfits at about £1000pd, inside unfortunately.

Market seems great. And to be frank I have been to busy watching Silicon Valley to even properly look.

We might be in a bubble and everyone that has the balls and ability should head for one before this goes bust. That's your duty as capitalist citizen - to get the tulipty place that lose people go bust!

[TheDude]

have been approached for 3 outside roles over prev weak.good rates as well for a python dev.
2 inside roles for some FS outfits at about £1000pd, inside unfortunately.

Anyone offering £1000 per day for a python specialist is probably looking for a Seigfried and Roy style stage magician...