Supermarkets slam "food stockpiling" suggestion by government.

[sasguru]

Taxpayers money going to the Queen of England, via the EU CAP programme - is a 'reasonable re-distributive 'tax'' is it?

Are you serious?

Here is some info on the point of the CAP. Sounds reasonable to me, particularly the aim to "maintain rural areas and landscapes across the EU":

https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi.../cap-glance_en

It turns out that large landowners will get larger amounts of subsidies.
It's hardly the EU's fault that we've arranged things in the Uk in such a way that the Queen owns so much land.

[meridian]

Taxpayers money going to the Queen of England, via the EU CAP programme - is a 'reasonable re-distributive 'tax'' is it?

Are you serious?

No system is perfect and you will always find anomalies.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...farm-subsidies

Greenpeace analysed the top recipients of CAP subsidies in the UK for the first time.

Some 16 of the top 100 are owned or controlled by individuals or families who feature on the 2016 Sunday Times rich list, receiving a total of £10.6m last year in “single payment scheme” subsidies alone, and £13.4m in total farm subsidies, Greenpeace said.

So 16 of the top 100 CAP recipients are on the Rich List, and receive a total of £13.4m in subsidies.

Put this into the context of the total CAP spend in the U.K. of £2.4 billion in 2015, it’s de minimus.

For every Queen getting a CAP payment there are tens, if not hundreds, of small farmers that wouldn’t survive without it.

[sasguru]

No system is perfect and you will always find anomalies.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...farm-subsidies



So 16 of the top 100 CAP recipients are on the Rich List, and receive a total of £13.4m in subsidies.

Put this into the context of the total CAP spend in the U.K. of £2.4 billion in 2015, it’s de minimus.

For every Queen getting a CAP payment there are tens, if not hundreds, of small farmers that wouldn’t survive without it.

I think you need to improve your communication skills. You're talking to a Brexshitter, so you need to dumb down:

1. He won't be able to work out what proportion 13.4 million is of 2.4 billion.
2. Don't use phrases like "de minimus". "Teensy Weensy" would be more appropriate.

[Bean]

No system is perfect and you will always find anomalies.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...farm-subsidies



So 16 of the top 100 CAP recipients are on the Rich List, and receive a total of £13.4m in subsidies.

Put this into the context of the total CAP spend in the U.K. of £2.4 billion in 2015, it’s de minimus.

For every Queen getting a CAP payment there are tens, if not hundreds, of small farmers that wouldn’t survive without it.

The statistics posted in post #95 of this thread, do not agree with your assertion.
(In fact, the figures suggest the inverse, but hey ho.)

[Bean]

Here is some info on the point of the CAP. Sounds reasonable to me, particularly the aim to "maintain rural areas and landscapes across the EU":

https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi.../cap-glance_en

It turns out that large landowners will get larger amounts of subsidies.
It's hardly the EU's fault that we've arranged things in the Uk in such a way that the Queen owns so much land.

I was commenting on the use of the word reasonable by Cirrus, to label CAP.

From your link though;
"•ensure that European Union (EU) farmers can make a reasonable living"
"Farming is unlike any other business. Despite the importance of food production, farmers’ income is significantly lower compared to non-agricultural income (by around 40%). Agriculture depends more on the weather and the climate than many other sectors. Besides there is an inevitable time gap between consumer demand and farmers being able to supply: growing more wheat or producing more milk inevitably takes time."

It all looks heavily focussed on farmers...

So, again, - does the Queen already have a reasonable farming income - or does she NEED the CAP money?

and more importantly - is the redistribution of taxpayer money, to the Queen via CAP, reasonable?

I think you need to improve your communication skills. You're talking to a Brexshitter, so you need to dumb down:

1. He won't be able to work out what proportion 13.4 million is of 2.4 billion.
2. Don't use phrases like "de minimus". "Teensy Weensy" would be more appropriate.

Such a valuable contribution to the discussion, as always.....you must have got bored with the pigeons.

[WTFH]

It's good to know that brexiters are upset that the sovereign of our country is still going to get the full amount she currently receives as and when Brexit finally happens, and that they will continue to blame the EU for it, rather than blaming those in the UK for how the UK chooses to redistribute the CAP.

[meridian]

The statistics posted in post #95 of this thread, do not agree with your assertion.
(In fact, the figures suggest the inverse, but hey ho.)

This one?:

Interesting, that you think that. Perhaps it was originally envisaged as such, but it far from that objective now;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7815871.html

Perhaps the original objective(s) have changed?

https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/sit...reshold_en.pdf
^^ sets out 'small farmers scheme' reporting (and those not implementing) threshold limits as <£1250

Defra, UK - CAP Payments Search
^^ search for <£1251 and you get 12863 results, totalling £9.6 Million
but search for >£1251 and you get 142409 results, totalling £3.3 Billion


Two interesting outliers that jump off the page are;

RSPB receiving £3.4 Million, and
Arla foods (Leeds) receiving £1.3 Million

Are those two organisations inefficient small farmers?
I think not.

Well, let's have a look at your examples of facts:

Firstly, this one:

https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/sit...reshold_en.pdf
^^ sets out 'small farmers scheme' reporting (and those not implementing) threshold limits as <£1250

You're interpreting this as the SFS only being for payments of less than £1250. That is incorrect. It's the threshold for reporting beneficiaries, not a determination of whether a farm is small.

Your other facts:

The RSPB is, obviously, a charity with a large landholding. If you check your own link you will see that the CAP payments received by them are for Rural Development - the same class of payments as the National Trust, Rural Payments Agency, Natural England, etc. This isn't farmer aid, but rural development aid to protect rural areas.

Arla is a plc owned co-operatively by dairy farmers. Any lands held directly by the plc are indirectly owned by farmers, and directly managed and run by sharefarmers. CAP payments for Arla are spread across multiple separate farms.

Your other fact, possibly more relevant:

but search for >£1251 and you get 142409 results, totalling £3.3 Billion

142409 results, but sort by total descending and list 100 to a page and it's only page 35 before you get to under £100,000. In other words, over 150,000 farmers receive a payment of up to £100,000.

There are, of course, lies, damn lies, and statistics, and it is quite possible for both of us to be correct:
- 80% of payments go to 20% of recipients (actually, this is wrong - it might be closer to say that 80% of total payment value across all categories goes to 20% of recipients, including government departments and charitable trusts, but I haven't totaled the payments to see if the Pareto numbers are correct)
- For every "Rich List" recipient there are hundreds of farmers that rely on CAP payments to survive.

Now, I can't be bothered and don't have the time, but I'm sure you could explore more about the difference between Rural Development, Direct Aid, and Market Schemes, the difference between land owners, farmers, and fruit & vegetables, the difference between private and public sector recipients, etc, to come to a closer thesis on whether CAP payments make good value to the UK.

[sasguru]

This one?:


Well, let's have a look at your examples of facts:

Firstly, this one:



You're interpreting this as the SFS only being for payments of less than £1250. That is incorrect. It's the threshold for reporting beneficiaries, not a determination of whether a farm is small.

Your other facts:

The RSPB is, obviously, a charity with a large landholding. If you check your own link you will see that the CAP payments received by them are for Rural Development - the same class of payments as the National Trust, Rural Payments Agency, Natural England, etc. This isn't farmer aid, but rural development aid to protect rural areas.

Arla is a plc owned co-operatively by dairy farmers. Any lands held directly by the plc are indirectly owned by farmers, and directly managed and run by sharefarmers. CAP payments for Arla are spread across multiple separate farms.

Your other fact, possibly more relevant:


142409 results, but sort by total descending and list 100 to a page and it's only page 35 before you get to under £100,000. In other words, over 150,000 farmers receive a payment of up to £100,000.

There are, of course, lies, damn lies, and statistics, and it is quite possible for both of us to be correct:
- 80% of payments go to 20% of recipients (actually, this is wrong - it might be closer to say that 80% of total payment value across all categories goes to 20% of recipients, including government departments and charitable trusts, but I haven't totaled the payments to see if the Pareto numbers are correct)
- For every "Rich List" recipient there are hundreds of farmers that rely on CAP payments to survive.

Now, I can't be bothered and don't have the time, but I'm sure you could explore more about the difference between Rural Development, Direct Aid, and Market Schemes, the difference between land owners, farmers, and fruit & vegetables, the difference between private and public sector recipients, etc, to come to a closer thesis on whether CAP payments make good value to the UK.

I wouldn't bother. Mr. Bean is a strange mixture of OCD, low IQ and selective interpretaion of the facts. You should leave him to stew in his mire.

[darmstadt]

The possible food shortage has been fixed:



Remember this is the man responsible now for your food, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

[Cirrus]

Every Little Helps

Taxpayers money going to the Queen of England, via the EU CAP programme - is a 'reasonable re-distributive 'tax'' is it?

Couple of points:

1) I don't think Queenie is every morning ensconced in her palace pawing through a copy of the Racing Post and dobbing huge chunks of CAP grants on likely looking gee-gees. It actually goes to her estates and all the (farming type) people who look after her vast swathes of our green and pleasant land.

2) We already redistribute huge amounts of tax in the direction of Her Royal Highness, so any contributions from Brussels are only too welcome.