Supermarkets slam "food stockpiling" suggestion by government.

[sasguru]

The EU is right wing in the sense it enforces free market policies. It discourages the state intervening to prop up industries. It discourages state ownership.

Maggie taught Europe all that - the UK can hardly complain about those aspects of the EU.

[darmstadt]

The EU is right wing in the sense it enforces free market policies. It discourages the state intervening to prop up industries. It discourages state ownership. This capitalist bias is why the Labour Party are only too happy to let the Tories get the blame for all the pain of leaving the EU. After the Tories get booted out, Labour can then take over and nationalize everything.

The EU can look more socialist to some observers because they are used to the UK's more extreme right wing position - minimal rights for workers, free reign for tax dodgers, low minimum wage, low taxation leading to poor social provision (eg yesterday I asked for a doctor appointment. The first one they had was over a month away )

Possibly only in the UK...

[PurpleGorilla]

Living in the country, I'm pleased to see the benefits of all the support that is provided. If we can all afford it then it seems like a reasonable re-distributive 'tax'.

You could equally well have focussed your fear mongering on why 'other EU policies' have been growing and thus making CAP a smaller proportion (the actual CAP expenditure has remained fairly level for the last quarter century). Do we know what those other expenditures are? Do we get our fair share?

Fear mongering?

[PurpleGorilla]

It’s hardly a level playing field if you’re comparing the subsidies of the entire EU against Kenya. What do the subsidies compare to, say, Africa? Or USA? Or China?

(Note: my point isn’t whether subsidies are good or bad, only that if you’re comparing them then at least use apples to apples, and not apples to a peanut)

I used Kenya as we were talking about Kenyan green beans - roses - etc.

Africa GDP €1,800bn

EU GDP €15,300bn (€41bn CAP therefore 0.27%)

[Cirrus]

They needed to focus on the big picture. But now it's too late

EU GDP €15,300bn (€41bn CAP therefore 0.27%)

This is the biggest problem with Brexit. People kept going on about how this it was or how that it was; how it never passed an audit on its accounts; how corrupt it is.

But it's only 0.7% of the EU. Don't throw the 99.3% out because of this tiny speck.

[PurpleGorilla]

This is the biggest problem with Brexit. People kept going on about how this it was or how that it was; how it never passed an audit on its accounts; how corrupt it is.

But it's only 0.7% of the EU. Don't throw the 99.3% out because of this tiny speck.

By rendering it down to EU GDP the statistic loses all value. At the highest level of abstraction it should be national GDP to CAP benefit. I can’t be arsed but look at France, Spain, Italy and see how the numbers stack up. I bet it’s more than 0.27%.

[meridian]

This is the biggest problem with Brexit. People kept going on about how this it was or how that it was; how it never passed an audit on its accounts; how corrupt it is.

But it's only 0.7% of the EU. Don't throw the 99.3% out because of this tiny speck.

IMO, the biggest problem with Brexit is this.

It's a throwaway comment, not really part of your argument, but it's the propaganda used that keeps coming back like a whack-a-mole.

Sure, I could link to facts to show the EU's accounts have been signed off as fair and accurate. I could show you where the accounts show payments with "material errors" and then explain that "material errors" means something specific in the auditing world, and show that the vast majority of EU funds are administered by the member states themselves not "the EU", and that those material errors were largely on the side of the member states.

But then a week later, someone still pipes up with "never passed an audit".

It's the same with tariffs on food from Africa. Easily disproven by simply looking at the tariff schedules on the government's own website. But still a falsehood that keeps cropping up.

It's the Brexiter way of doing things. Don't stick to facts, anti-EU soundbites only, and when they're proven wrong just move on to another one. Rinse and repeat every six weeks.

Which is why remain lost the referendum campaign. Remain tried to stick to facts and forecasts. Easily dismissed as "Project Fear". No rebuttal of facts necessary. Rinse and repeat.

It's a propaganda war, and the right-wing Brexiters (Farage, JRM, Daily Mail, etc) are winning by a country mile.

[darmstadt]

IMO, the biggest problem with Brexit is this.

It's a throwaway comment, not really part of your argument, but it's the propaganda used that keeps coming back like a whack-a-mole.

Sure, I could link to facts to show the EU's accounts have been signed off as fair and accurate. I could show you where the accounts show payments with "material errors" and then explain that "material errors" means something specific in the auditing world, and show that the vast majority of EU funds are administered by the member states themselves not "the EU", and that those material errors were largely on the side of the member states.

But then a week later, someone still pipes up with "never passed an audit".

It's the same with tariffs on food from Africa. Easily disproven by simply looking at the tariff schedules on the government's own website. But still a falsehood that keeps cropping up.

It's the Brexiter way of doing things. Don't stick to facts, anti-EU soundbites only, and when they're proven wrong just move on to another one. Rinse and repeat every six weeks.

Which is why remain lost the referendum campaign. Remain tried to stick to facts and forecasts. Easily dismissed as "Project Fear". No rebuttal of facts necessary. Rinse and repeat.

It's a propaganda war, and the right-wing Brexiters (Farage, JRM, Daily Mail, etc) are winning by a country mile.

Pretty much nailed it in one...As you say, regardless of pointing out the facts and truthful rebuttals, Brexiteers continue to believe their own lies and misunderstanding of the facts.

[meridian]

The EU is right wing in the sense it enforces free market policies. It discourages the state intervening to prop up industries. It discourages state ownership. This capitalist bias is why the Labour Party are only too happy to let the Tories get the blame for all the pain of leaving the EU. After the Tories get booted out, Labour can then take over and nationalize everything.

The EU can look more socialist to some observers because they are used to the UK's more extreme right wing position - minimal rights for workers, free reign for tax dodgers, low minimum wage, low taxation leading to poor social provision (eg yesterday I asked for a doctor appointment. The first one they had was over a month away )

I don’t disagree with your second paragraph, which is why I don’t believe that Brexit will give “the people” what they want - more equality between top and bottom, a more even distribution of opportunities into poor areas, and basically a better chance.

(I don’t believe Corbyns’s far left socialism will give us that either).

“The people” are fscked either way, with nobody left to blame (though Muslim women in burkas are coming back into the political rhetoric so perhaps there still are “others” for the political classes to lay the blame at).

[PurpleGorilla]

I don’t disagree with your second paragraph, which is why I don’t believe that Brexit will give “the people” what they want - more equality between top and bottom, a more even distribution of opportunities into poor areas, and basically a better chance.

(I don’t believe Corbyns’s far left socialism will give us that either).

“The people” are fscked either way, with nobody left to blame (though Muslim women in burkas are coming back into the political rhetoric so perhaps there still are “others” for the political classes to lay the blame at).

Being in the EU hasn’t brought us to the promised land though has it?