[Merged]Brexit stuff (part 2)

[milanbenes]

That is just an empty cliche. Go on Milan we have done our bit to explain why we should have Brexit now let us hear some coherent arguments from you as to why we should remain.

DA, I'm not sure if you've done your bit, it took seven pages of discussion to get to the Brexiter's vision..

1) Free movement of labour, not free movement of people.
2) Ability trade with who we want on terms mutually agreeable to both parties without having to have agreements ratified by 27 other countries with opposing goals.
3) Zero interference from other countries on our policies



Why should we remain ?

Ok, let's get back to basics, why was the EU Project started ?

To bring the countries together and avoid a repeat of WW1 and WW2 in Europe.

Part of that involves social balance, therefore, distributing wealth from the richer countries to the poorer countries.

Get rid of inequality, less chance of war ? Think, remember, where did WW2 come from, what was Hitler's starting point, it was the financial crash in Germany, and the bitterness of German people seeing their wealth eroded compared to their neighbouring countries the DMark crashed against the Czech Korona and French Frank.

If you're not aware of this part of history and the bitterness it created then read these two (either from Amazon or as the pdf version):

https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Money-J.../dp/1457502666

http://www.libertarianismo.org/livros/jopdom.pdf


https://www.amazon.com/When-Money-Di.../dp/1586489941

http://thirdparadigm.org/doc/4506088...Money-Dies.pdf


Read about the bitterness of not being able to buy food, but seeing their neighboring countries living like kings.

Then you will understand the point of the single currency.


So, ok, that's a little history lesson, that is why the EU exists, the founding principles.

As I already agreed, during the journey so far, like any organization it has got a little fat and put it's fingers where it shouldn't and as I said, and I repeat for the hard of hearing, the EU is not going to unfold, the EU is a project, and actually I find the whole Brexit saga very positive because yes, the EU does need reforming and yes the EU is over doing things in certain directions, and thanks to the UK escalating it is forcing the EU to look inwardly and think about what can be improved, so no arguments there.


That's it, there's no vision, only sense.

Milan.

[vetran]

Veteran, are you saying that you agree with the rest of original PM's post about how anyone who voted remain should hang their head in shame because they are dishonouring the war dead?

No I know in my heart they are wrong to vote remain but I don't doubt they are mainly honourable people who love the UK, they just believe in the EU and don't suspect it of duplicity.

That was why I didn't comment on it as it was as you say offensive. People fought for our freedom, we still have that freedom and have had a democratic vote because of their sacrifice lets not sully their bravery with a squabble.

[vetran]

There's a world of difference in 'having the right to work there' and 'having to apply for the right to work there'.

As a UK expat working living in Germany, working with clients in Germany, Austria, and occasionally the Netherlands I only have to turn up at an interview and begin work. Latterly I've American friends marvelling at the ease in which I'm able to do this without a visa application, a work-permit or being fluent in the local language.

And your convenience is more important than the real economic damage the accession countries are doing by undercutting local labour?

If the visa was points based how likely is it you would be refused? I suspect very unlikely and it would probably in these modern days of computers be very fast to obtain.

You choose to work as a contractor they might prefer you as an employee but they are very likely to still want you.

I My brother worked professionally all over the world and had few challenges getting permission, friends have gone to grow flora in Texas, build phone systems in Saudi etc it is all possible.

[milanbenes]

And your convenience is more important than the real economic damage the accession countries are doing by undercutting local labour?

.

they won't be undercutting local labour for long, the economic miracle will be Britain's post Brexit currency devaluation when UK workers become cheaper than the accession country's workers

Milan.

[vetran]

they won't be undercutting local labour for long, the economic miracle will be Britain's post Brexit currency devaluation when UK workers become cheaper than the accession country's workers

Milan.

hardly all the hard working ones seem to be here.

[milanbenes]

hardly all the hard working ones seem to be here.

I can fix that for you,

faster than you can say Brexit the foreigners will be gone once the pound devalues.

They ain't stooopid and they ain't gonna hang around once the pound is worth cents on the euro (or whatever their home currency is)

Milan.

[stek]

Just had a thought/brain fart, after Brexit does the Dublin Agreement apply to UK, because if not asylum seekers and refugees can just roll up to UK and the UK will have to accept them.

[Antman]

Sunderland would really be the only area impacted. The supply factories that are further afield supply a lot more companies than just Nissan.

Plus Cars are a red herring. If we want a deal with free trade in cars and car parts Germany will happily agree to it and the rest of europe can argue the point as they watch Skoda / Seat close a factory or 2 in Spain / Eastern Europe to reflect reduced demand for their cars.

The fact we end up with free trade in cars is going to be irrelevant in the negotiations. We will have free trade for goods the battle is free trade in services vs free movement of people. And to fix the latter its the UK that needs to change by making benefits dependent on residency and tax paid .

I was on the rock and roll once in Spain and could only claim because I'd worked previously (and it was limited by how much I'd contributed, after a certain time the payments went to zero).

[BrilloPad]

No I know in my heart they are wrong to vote remain but I don't doubt they are mainly honourable people who love the UK, they just believe in the EU and don't suspect it of duplicity.

Most Brexiters voted out of a mistrust of the UK Government. A protest vote against UK inequality.

A pity they cannot vote for a party other than Labour or Tory.

[DodgyAgent]

DA, I'm not sure if you've done your bit, it took seven pages of discussion to get to the Brexiter's vision..

1) Free movement of labour, not free movement of people.
2) Ability trade with who we want on terms mutually agreeable to both parties without having to have agreements ratified by 27 other countries with opposing goals.
3) Zero interference from other countries on our policies



Why should we remain ?

Ok, let's get back to basics, why was the EU Project started ?

To bring the countries together and avoid a repeat of WW1 and WW2 in Europe.

Part of that involves social balance, therefore, disturbing wealth from the richer countries to the poorer countries.

Get rid of inequality, less chance of war ? Think, remember, where did WW2 come from, what was Hitler's starting point, it was the financial crash in Germany, and the bitterness of German people seeing their wealth eroded compared to their neighbouring countries the DMark crashed against the Czech Korona and French Frank.

If you're not aware of this part of history and the bitterness it created then read these two (either from Amazon or as the pdf version):

https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Money-J.../dp/1457502666

http://www.libertarianismo.org/livros/jopdom.pdf


https://www.amazon.com/When-Money-Di.../dp/1586489941

http://thirdparadigm.org/doc/4506088...Money-Dies.pdf


Read about the bitterness of not being able to buy food, but seeing their neighboring countries living like kings.

Then you will understand the point of the single currency.


So, ok, that's a little history lesson, that is why the EU exists, the founding principles.

As I already agreed, during the journey so far, like any organization it has got a little fat and put it's fingers where it shouldn't and as I said, and I repeat for the hard of hearing, the EU is not going to unfold, the EU is a project, and actually I find the whole Brexit saga very positive because yes, the EU does need reforming and yes the EU is over doing things in certain directions, and thanks to the UK escalating it is forcing the EU to look inwardly and think about what can be improved, so no arguments there.


That's it, there's no vision, only sense.

Milan.

The premise that the EU will achieve anything that would not otherwise be achieved is laughable. The Euro itself is already creating poverty and unemployment with no sign whatsoever of enabling mediterranean countries to ever win prosperity. If you think it is ever going to reform again that is laughable. even with its 2nd largest economy leaving it all the bureaucrats and institutions remain intact. Would this happen in business?

let me give you examples of what happens when countries are plunged into poverty. have you read any of these:?

https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Money-J.../dp/1457502666

http://www.libertarianismo.org/livros/jopdom.pdf


https://www.amazon.com/When-Money-Di.../dp/1586489941

http://thirdparadigm.org/doc/4506088...Money-Dies.pdf

I will accept the war argument in that the EU was conceived to make the economies of the EU interdependent upon each other. Right now if the Euro economies continue to decline (interestingly the EU countries without the EU are enjoying considerably better growth rates than Euro countries) then the war argument itself will become null and void as people start taking to the streets and rioting.

There is no vision from you just an assembly of cliches and weasel words