You're probably not going to like this - we certainly don't

[quackhandle]

Remember what I said in the other thread - this is about scaring public sector agencies into implementing it. The consequence of not implementing it (for very senior civil servants) is losing their comfy office in Whitehall with a forced move to a basement office in Kings Cross.... So it will be implemented...

I'm sure there's a few who will be all too familiar with Kings Cross and it's local clientele. Luv you long time.

qh

[eek]

Absolutely, there's very little chance it won't be implemented. But in the unlikely event that the relevant supplier fails to implement this, the actual case law hasn't changed.

That's because it doesn't need to. HMRC are just sneaking in a set of rules that bypass the substitution and mutual obligation bits and then ensuring tax is paid before anyone can do anything about it... Just to show you what will happen note that HMRC are now attacking some agencies for paying people via tax schemes see http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...being-hit.html which should be enough to ensure all agencies are compliant come April....

There may be a good reason why this is just being implemented in the public sector - in the private sector they would be told where to go followed by see you in court....

[eek]

I'm sure there's a few who will be all too familiar with Kings Cross and it's local clientele. Luv you long time.

qh

I'm trying to remember where else in Central London poor quality Central Government Offices still exist (i.e. where a civil servant can be sent to but cannot protest about it). There aren't that many of them left

[jamesbrown]

That's because it doesn't need to.

We agree. I'm simply saying that, if the implementation is ballsed in particular instances, and they do need a tribunal decision, it's no more likely to go their way after these changes. Aside from that point of detail, I think we're all in agreement about what's happening and what the implications will be.

[malvolio]

I'm trying to remember where else in Central London poor quality Central Government Offices still exist (i.e. where a civil servant can be sent to but cannot protest about it). There aren't that many of them left

That's easy. The Home Office outpost in Croydon...

[jamesbrown]

There may be a good reason why this is just being implemented in the public sector - in the private sector they would be told where to go followed by see you in court....

I think we'll see this is the private sector, eventually. They may take it slowly, but the "no plans" line is classic BS. When they do, I think companies will mostly rollover, at least for BoS contractors, because this will be handled by a compliance team, who are naturally risk averse. I don't think project-based/short-term work is going anywhere, but the model will change for BoS work. Companies that work with many and/or very expensive specialists may fight it or simply increase rates, because there's no way that specialists are going on permie payroll - the costs would far exceed any legal/tax costs.

[LondonManc]

I think we'll see this is the private sector, eventually. They may take it slowly, but the "no plans" line is classic BS. When they do, I think companies will mostly rollover, at least for BoS contractors, because this will be handled by a compliance team, who are naturally risk averse. I don't think project-based/short-term work is going anywhere, but the model will change for BoS work. Companies that work with many and/or very expensive specialists may fight it or simply increase rates, because there's no way that specialists are going on permie payroll - the costs would far exceed any legal/tax costs.

It's kind of what it should be heading to - where specialists get treated as consultancies.

The big bummer is the loss of T&S for people. What extra rights will these people have or are they a still a completely expendable set of workers who can be binned off at a moment's notice, despite being unable to claim the T&S for staying away?

[eek]

We agree. I'm simply saying that, if the implementation is ballsed in particular instances, and they do need a tribunal decision, it's no more likely to go their way after these changes. Aside from that point of detail, I think we're all in agreement about what's happening and what the implications will be.

I find it best to be clear and explain things in little words. There are some who have posted on this thread that really don't understand how well planned and executed this attack has been starting from the announcement of the Agency Intermediary reporting regulations...

[youngguy]

It's kind of what it should be heading to - where specialists get treated as consultancies.

The big bummer is the loss of T&S for people. What extra rights will these people have or are they a still a completely expendable set of workers who can be binned off at a moment's notice, despite being unable to claim the T&S for staying away?

Is the expectation there will be no t and s?

I notice in the consultation doc even the 5% flat rate expenses are not a given.

So you work with all the risk and no employee rights; no pension, holiday , sick pay etc. You get taxed as an employee and you can't claim ANY expenses? Not even pension or admin and accountancy costs?

That can't be right surely ?

[eek]

It's kind of what it should be heading to - where specialists get treated as consultancies.

The big bummer is the loss of T&S for people. What extra rights will these people have or are they a still a completely expendable set of workers who can be binned off at a moment's notice, despite being unable to claim the T&S for staying away?

You need to understand that your typical IT contractor is the exception here. The vast majority of the people these rules impact will be people living locally who are being supplied via an agency. I thought current clientco had a total of 3 contractors as that is all I've met (me and 2 others all specialist skill sets).

It turns out there are 15 others who do the exact same job as various permanent people do around here - they aren't permanent though as the public sector agency can't employ them (even on fixed term contracts) due to recruitment freezes.

So you can see that there are unintended consequences here until you realise how much Unison and the GMB want these tricks removed...