DASA Umbrella

[eek]

Apparently my umbrella (which costs me around £60pcm) costs slightly over £100pcm when used through another agency (agency Y).

And there is the real issue - agencies want to make money from everything every way they can.

If i choose a different umbrella than what's on PSL then my payment terms are extended by 30days. Some sort of punishment for not letting them take the bribe.

And that's the other side of the same coin.

[fabios]

No favours in this business. They stick to the process unless they don't have one .

btw I've just learned that quite significant amount of margin we pay to umbrella goes back to agency. Apparently my umbrella (which costs me around £60pcm) costs slightly over £100pcm when used through another agency (agency Y). That umbrella is on PSL list of agency Y. If i choose a different umbrella than what's on PSL then my payment terms are extended by 30days. Some sort of punishment for not letting them take the bribe.

[hobnob]

Following up on this, things have worked out quite well, so I can answer my own question!

After my previous post, the agency and consultancy kept messing me around, and postponing the start date. (They didn't keep me informed, so I only found out when I chased them for joining instructions.) So, I followed the advice from other posts here: "don't stop applying until you've got your feet under the desk". I got an interview with another company, who also wanted someone to start immediately, but in this case it literally meant the following day. That meant that I started before I had the paperwork in place, which I wouldn't normally do, but in this case I got lucky. As well as the immediate start, the new contract paid the same rate that the original role had offered (before the agency reduced it).

I emailed the original agency and consultancy on a Thursday afternoon to tell them that I was withdrawing my application. (I don't think that counts as giving notice, since the agency never actually sent a contract to the umbrella company.) They weren't happy, and both phoned me trying to change my mind. The agency said that they could guarantee that I'd start work the following Monday, but I said no. When the consultancy phoned, they said that it would definitely be Tuesday, or failing that Wednesday. Anyway, I just kept saying "No" until it eventually sunk in.

The new contract came through Hays, so they sent me their PSL. DASA (and Clarity) aren't on the PSL but they are apparently on the drop-down list (i.e. in the software that the agents use). Hays don't insist on the PSL, but they strongly recommend it. However, due to the time constraints, I decided to stick with DASA (since I'd already been through the onboarding process with passport etc).

One of the emails from Hays said:
"Please Note: with DASA Umbrella Ltd not being on our Umbrella PSL, we cannot action same day payment requests for delayed payments due to delayed timesheet submissions and approvals, like we can do with Umbrella Approved companies on our PSL."

There have been a few hiccups with the Hays timesheets, which caused delays. However, I've received payment from DASA incredibly quickly. My first 2 timesheets were approved by the client on Friday, then I got paid by DASA on Tuesday (i.e. the next working day after the bank holiday weekend). My 3rd timesheet was approved yesterday, and I got paid by DASA today.

I don't know whether it will always be that quick, or whether Hays/DASA are doing me a favour because of the initial delays. (I.e. I've now received all the payments that I should have received by today.) I also don't know whether Hays have sent the money to DASA right away (given their comments above), or whether DASA are paying me upfront while they wait for Hays to pay their invoice. Either way, DASA certainly haven't been dragging their feet, so I can see why they won awards.

[hobnob]

Some (potentially) good news: I think this is now sorted. I spoke to the recruitment agency, and said that I can't take the contract unless they do weekly payments. This was hardball negotiation, i.e. I literally said to them a couple of times "Just cancel the contract, this isn't going to work" and I fully intended to walk away. They said that they'd speak to their CEO, but I didn't expect anything to come of it. However, they came back today and said that they'll do weekly timesheets + payment a week later.

So, I think NLUK is correct that the recruiters didn't want to go back to the consultancy and say that the whole thing has fallen through.

I still don't trust the agency, but at least I've now got this commitment in writing (email), and my employment contract with DASA specifies weekly payments. I'll feel happier once I get paid, but hopefully it will work out.

Thanks again for all the moral support - this has been a stressful time, and I appreciate it.

[eek]

That's a really crappy situation to be in.

I've had payments terms like that before but I had enough in the bank to cover the first couple of lean months.

Other than keep looking for an alternative contract that will start sooner and pay quicker, I'm not sure what else to suggest. It sounds like there's multiple games being played and you're the one that's going to get screwed over.

Reality is that inside IR35 work should be weekly billing on 7 day terms or at worst monthly billing with 7 day terms.

if you want an employee you should be paying them like an employee.

And I would understand the statement that we want you to use DASA because they will pay you before they get paid (that's how paystream got so big) but insisting on DASA while also insisting on 30 day terms is taking the absolute mickey.

Finally hobnob wish I could give you some usable advice but apart from asking the agency to pay the first couple of invoices early (the first agency when I returned to contracting did that as they knew people had problems and they were nice like that) I can't see any easy solution.

[ladymuck]

That's a really crappy situation to be in.

I've had payments terms like that before but I had enough in the bank to cover the first couple of lean months.

Other than keep looking for an alternative contract that will start sooner and pay quicker, I'm not sure what else to suggest. It sounds like there's multiple games being played and you're the one that's going to get screwed over.

[hobnob]

Thanks to all for the comments. The idea is that the chain would be:
Me -> umbrella -> recruitment agency -> consultancy -> end client

Based on that, I'm not sure why the consultancy would care about the umbrella, but I suppose it's possible that they've made this a requirement of their supply chain (either to avoid being implicated in anything dodgy or to get kickbacks). If this restriction came from the agency, I'd have expected them to tell me earlier, rather than waiting until I'd already signed up with another umbrella.

That said (and drifting a bit off-topic), I don't entirely trust the agency. I had my interview 2 weeks ago, and it was supposed to be an immediate start, but they've been slow to respond. I contacted the consultancy directly yesterday, and they said that they've been haggling with the agency about the daily rate, but they emphasised that this wouldn't affect me directly, i.e. my rate wouldn't change. The agency then came back and said that they had to reduce my rate by £20/day, otherwise they'd be on zero commission. So, someone's not telling me the truth.

This is the first time I've come across these payment terms. I'm willing to accept that this is a legitimate option, but it shouldn't have come as a surprise. When I spoke to the agency today, I mentioned the key information document, which I think was a brand new concept for them. If I had a decent warchest then it wouldn't be such a problem, but mine is now depleted. So, if I took this contract and started next week, I'd get no money in April, 8 days of salary at the end of May, then a month's salary at the end of June. I'll be bankrupt by then, so it's a no go. (This relates to what NLUK said, i.e. there's no point in me insisting on Clarity with the same payment terms, because it still wouldn't work.)

[lucyclarityumbrella]

When I spoke to DASA on the phone, they also said that I'd submit a monthly timesheet and then the invoice would be paid by the recruitment agency 30 days later. E.g. if I started tomorrow then I wouldn't get any money until the end of May. At previous umbrellas, I've submitted a weekly timesheet and been paid the following week.

Depends on the agency as to the invoicing frequency, so if its a different agency they may have different terms with the client to what you've had with other agencies.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

If that fails tell Lucy, come to the CUK event and sit back as she kicks the living tulip out of them.

What do you take me for????

[ladymuck]

Is it the agency getting the kick back or is it the client? I presume we're assuming the agency are lying about the client insisting on the use of this umbrella and this particular agent needs to put petrol in his Fiat Panda.

Depending on your relationship with the client, you could also check with them if they do have a preferred umbrella.

[northernladuk]

DASA have won best Umbrella under 1500 people the last two years running at the CUK awards and also sponser the event. Don't want to upset admin as they are helping fund his Bently but it appears all the kick backs don't just stop with the agencies

If you are going to abandon it anyway I'd stick to my guns and insist on Clarity to the final breath of that gig. Agency might be getting kickbacks but it can't be as much as them losing commission for a couple of weeks while they find a replacement and suffer the wrath of their client when they find out (oops) you left because of umbrella kickbacks.

If that fails tell Lucy, come to the CUK event and sit back as she kicks the living tulip out of them.

[hobnob]

Are the client paying DASA's fee? Because otherwise I would be asking if there is a kickback involved.

Nope, I'd be paying the margin: £108/month, which is higher than I've seen at other umbrellas (typically £15-20/week = £65-80/month), but not completely exorbitant. I'm pretty sure you're right about the kickback.

When I spoke to DASA on the phone, they also said that I'd submit a monthly timesheet and then the invoice would be paid by the recruitment agency 30 days later. E.g. if I started tomorrow then I wouldn't get any money until the end of May. At previous umbrellas, I've submitted a weekly timesheet and been paid the following week.

I think I'm probably going to abandon this contract, but hopefully this info is useful to anyone else considering DASA in the future.

[eek]

Has anyone come across DASA Umbrella before? I've done a Google search (for this site), which didn't find any results. Using the forum search, I found that delsvan was getting 88% of gross (back in 2006):
https://forums.contractoruk.com/umbr...tml#post117230
That involved claiming £1000 of expenses each month, which seems dodgy, but maybe they've changed?

I've checked the FCSA website, and DASA are accredited (for whatever that's worth).

They're not my first choice, but apparently the client are insisting on them. My conversation with the recruitment agency went like this:

Agent: "The client have requested that you use DASA rather than Clarity Umbrella."
Me: "Is that just a request, or are they insisting on it?"
Agent: "Yes, they are requesting that you use DASA."
Me: "Can I say no?"
Agent: "They have requested that you use DASA."

It's frustrating since I spoke to the agency last week (when they offered me the contract), and one of my first questions was "Can I use any umbrella or do you have a preferred supplier list?" At that point, they said I could use anyone, so I've already signed an employment contract with Clarity; I'm guessing that I'll now need to get a P45 from them, before I've done any work...

Are the client paying DASA's fee? Because otherwise I would be asking if there is a kickback involved.

[hobnob]

Has anyone come across DASA Umbrella before? I've done a Google search (for this site), which didn't find any results. Using the forum search, I found that delsvan was getting 88% of gross (back in 2006):
https://forums.contractoruk.com/umbr...tml#post117230
That involved claiming £1000 of expenses each month, which seems dodgy, but maybe they've changed?

I've checked the FCSA website, and DASA are accredited (for whatever that's worth).

They're not my first choice, but apparently the client are insisting on them. My conversation with the recruitment agency went like this:

Agent: "The client have requested that you use DASA rather than Clarity Umbrella."
Me: "Is that just a request, or are they insisting on it?"
Agent: "Yes, they are requesting that you use DASA."
Me: "Can I say no?"
Agent: "They have requested that you use DASA."

It's frustrating since I spoke to the agency last week (when they offered me the contract), and one of my first questions was "Can I use any umbrella or do you have a preferred supplier list?" At that point, they said I could use anyone, so I've already signed an employment contract with Clarity; I'm guessing that I'll now need to get a P45 from them, before I've done any work...